NPC & Player Nation Status

[Walter]

The populstat website gives the populations as 5,136,400 for Sweden and 2,218,000 for Norway (total 7,354,400). Not sure what the mods have in mind, but it is always possible to assume that a bunch of Fins have moved to and settled in Norway/Sweden which would allow you to recruit 'Finish' Cavalry ('Finish' as they would have SweNor citizenship).

[Tanthalas]

Huh thats actualy higher than I got working backwards from the combined 1905 population (I got like 7,190,XXX).  as to the Cav, I just want to be able to write about a priest using the "Anti Finn" Prayer  :P

The populstat website gives the populations as 5,136,400 for Sweden and 2,218,000 for Norway (total 7,354,400). Not sure what the mods have in mind, but it is always possible to assume that a bunch of Fins have moved to and settled in Norway/Sweden which would allow you to recruit 'Finish' Cavalry ('Finish' as they would have SweNor citizenship).

[snip]

The mods will talk about what we want to see filled up next. The shortlist that I can think of off the top of my head would be Sweden, Dutch (solo, not combined), Spain, and maybe something elsewhere.

[Tanthalas]

The only problem with Sweden/Norway is it just dosnt have any reason to have an ocean going navy... Seriously, CDBB and TB are all you realy need to build, there isnt realy even a reason to venture out into the North Atlantic, even combined (which they should be since it is pre 1905) with a kinda sorta semi decent population (it is still low in comparison to even 2.0 Italia) they just dont have anywhere to go LOL.

Denmark has a reason to have a navy (one of fairly robust ships since it would be only for the North Atlantic), but their population/economy likely wouldn't support it, in 1900 the total population for the "empire" was only like 2.5-2.6 million people (this includes Denmark, Iceland, and Greenland). 

Combining the 2 ala the Union of Calmar (1397-1523) would give someone a population of 9-10 million (reasonable IMHO if still lowish)and a reason to actualy build an ocean going navy.  the only "problem" is that they can literaly cut the baltic off from the north atlantic using nothing but CDBB, TB, and Forts... for Russia and Germany that is a HUGE problem.

the Dutch depending on which colonies they still have (Indonesia for sure but im not sure beyond that OTL), actualy have the potential to be fun (and have the economics and population if you include the Colonial holdings) to support a "reasonably" large fleet, and actualy have a reason to have one.

Wow I kinda wrote a wall of text there... sorry bout that.

The mods will talk about what we want to see filled up next. The shortlist that I can think of off the top of my head would be Sweden, Dutch (solo, not combined), Spain, and maybe something elsewhere.

[Kaiser Kirk]

I too found that AH had been removed as a reasonable power, and that the Lowlands were not to be reunited (1815-1836 they were).   After doing a fair bit of work on Spain, including a list of what ships they had historically as of 1900, I hemmed and hawed and took Italy. For the Spanish, I had worked out historical departures that would make for a more unified and effective state moving forward.

Overall, with the colonies, the Netherlands has about the same income as Italy at ~21, while Spain has ~14, and Unified Sweden ~7.  Spain and Sweden can gain a bit by selling BP (5 and 7 respectively) at 1.25 each.


These were my Spanish changes, designed to heal the Carlist rift, and put the nation on a course for reform and growth within the rules for fiddling. Not much but could give ideas. :
Nov 25, 1885 : Death of Alphonso XII as historic
May 17, 1886 : Birth of Infante Isabeau , not Alphonso XIII. Six year old Maria de las Mercedes proclaimed Queen. Queen Mother Maria Christina of Austria proclaimed Regent.

Effect : Alphonso XIII does not become king and support Don Primo de Rivera in the 1923 military coup. Mercedes is schooled in the art of running a nation.

Sept 11, 1896 :  On reaching her majority,  Maria de las Mercedes, commences rule as Queen of Spain.
Retaining Práxedes Mateo Sagasta as the liberal Prime Minister.

Sept 6th, 1898 : the hand of Maria de las Mercedes, Princess of Austurias, is promised to Jaime de Borbón y de Borbón-Parma, Duke of Madrid and Carlist pretender to the Spainish Throne, and Legitimist pretender ot the French Throne. Jaime surrenders his commision in the Russian Cavalry and returns to Spain.

June 30, 1899 : Marriage of Queen Maria and Duke Jaime occurs, hailed as "the Twin Monarchs".

Effects: The marriage heals the Carlist rift in the nation, re-unifying the crown. Record levels of goodwill result.

July 4, 1899:
With the failures overseas, and scathing criticism of the corruption and inefficiencies which cost Spain her overseas provinces. The Liberal party splits, liberal Sagasta is removed as Prime Minister and Germán Gamazo  leads a new party and  is appointed by the Twin Monarch as Prime Minister and  is  charged with a sweeping reform of the state.

Effect : Conservative Francisco Silvela does not serve, breaching Turnismo which alternated the Liberals and Conservatives. Localized nationalism is averted as the caciques loose the ability to control electoral results. As a result pragmatic and through reformation of the state, bringing more democracy and fundamental services is effected.

[Tanthalas]

Thanks for the numbers Kirk, was more or less what I had figured out, and I knew at some point in the 1800s the lowlands had been unified but I couldnt remember the exact years (and I was to lay to look it up without some idea if I would be allowed to use them that way).

Spain and Sweden, with their limited economies would honestly be a hard pill for me to swallow, add in that they dont have any reason to build a real fleet (seriously neither has anywhere to go) and they are sort of ho hum... best left as NPCs (or beginer nations for people who have no frekin clue/someplace to write interesting stories).  That said even ununified the Dutch could be fun (and as I said they have an actual reason to have a fleet). 

[Walter]

Dutch (solo, not combined)

I'm not so sure about that. According to the rules:

The homelands themselves should be split into a minimum of four regions.

If that were to be done, then it could be quite easy for another nation to conquer a whole region in the Netherlands by conquering just a pair of sectors. You might not like it, but I really think that the Netherlands should include Belgium and Luxemburg as that would give the homelands 24 sectors instead of 12. Looking at the map, there are numerous single sectors out there on the map that cover a bigger area than the Nethelands, Belgium and Luxemburg combined.

Having looked at the map again and considering that the Dutch control various bits of land accross the globe (especially the DEI), I would actually give the Dutch priority as a player nation over SweNor as it is more important due to the theatres they are involved (Europe, South America, Africa, Asia). SweNor does not have any faraway overseas possessions to worry about, so while they can be made bigger, they still are pretty much a regional power and less of an impact globally than the Dutch.

[snip]

Tan, can you give us a writeup on how you would unify the Belgians and Dutch after 1900? I really don't want to go back and edit history again, we need to move forward.

[Tanthalas]

I will get you a couple of diferent options.

Easiest would honestly be just keep them unified (ala 1815-1836) pre PoD I know I know (1875 right?) and the only history it would impact honestly though would be in the Lowlands (colonial losses to England were in the 1790-1805 range anyway).

a circa 1900 unification would likley see Belgium already in possession of the Congo (it was all efectivly the personal property of the king of Belgium circa 1885... I know I know post PoD but if im using 1900 as my personal PoD I cant just ignore 25 years of history...)  as for the unification in 1900 though it is relitivly easy, I kill off a whole bunch of people (they were droping like flys anyway in the 1860-1900 range in the Netherlands) and Marry Princess Wilhelmina (netherlands born circa 1880) to Prince Leopold of Belguim who I swap with his Younger Sister so he is born in 1872 instead of 1859 (and thus avoids dieing in 1869 she gets to instead).  I could even date the marriage to say 1899 and kill off King Leopold II in like January of 1900 (instead of 1909 per OTL).

Tan, can you give us a writeup on how you would unify the Belgians and Dutch after 1900? I really don't want to go back and edit history again, we need to move forward.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Having looked at the map again and considering that the Dutch control various bits of land accross the globe (especially the DEI), I would actually give the Dutch priority as a player nation over SweNor as it is more important due to the theatres they are involved (Europe, South America, Africa, Asia). SweNor does not have any faraway overseas possessions to worry about, so while they can be made bigger, they still are pretty much a regional power and less of an impact globally than the Dutch.

I certainly had no interest in reprising the Dutch without a unified Benelux.  The extra Belgian population and industrial capacity is significant. In the 1890s Belgium was one of the most heavily industrialized nations, and exported iron & steel to the UK. It's relative status slipped in the years before WWI as other nations caught up, and then not only was it fought over, but the Germans physically tore down and shipped the industry to Germany.

So, I know when I asked for it the answer was No.  But if you want a nation capable of being a midrank player, and protecting both a homeland surrounded by great powers, and vital colonies half a world a way next to expanded asian powers, the Dutch need a boost, and eliminating the French intervention aiding the Belgian revolution is the easiest. Considering Russia had demanded the unified Netherlands in 1815, a simple more active posture by Russia and the UK in 1836 would be reason enough for the French not to meddle.

[Tanthalas]

I agree with you Kirk, but Snip asked specificly for a 1900 option so I gave him one (although it would involve killing ALOT of people outside that a sperm here a sperm there who is keeping track)

Population would be in the 50-60 million range (including Colonial holdings and the large range is basicly because im not sure which colonies to include).  Economics would fall between Germany and Italy somewhere say like 24 IC and BP ? (not sure how many you have even looking at your report so I cant hit an average here), but likley more than Japan/China and once again less than Germany (due to heavier industrialization than either up to our PoD) so say 18 (that is the average between Japan/China and germany)

[Kaiser Kirk]

You could just marry Wilhelmina to Albert I - similar age, then Kill off Leopold, tada Albert's King and she's Queen. 
I liked having her as a character in Wesworld, quite a strong personality, smart, reformist.
The 1898ish Dutch constitutional revision should be ditched, and*  have her Father reform the House of Orange-Nassau's succession law prior to death, allowing her to retain Luxembourg.

I'll note that many European colonies in Africa - including Italian, German, Spanish, Portuguese and Belgian, aren't present here. Basically only the Brits and French have anything (the Ottoman bit isn't a colony), setting the stage for racing for Africa. Or limping, staggering, etc.

edit:* memory fail on that one. Mixed stuff up.

[Tanthalas]

After a little research, I like this idea alot better than mine... I was being to complex for my own good (not surprising I do have a tendancy to over think things on ocasion)

You could just marry Wilhelmina to Albert I - similar age, then Kill off Leopold, tada Albert's King and she's Queen. 
I liked having her as a character in Wesworld, quite a strong personality, smart, reformist.
The 1898ish Dutch constitutional revision should be ditched, and have her Father reform the House of Orange-Nassau's succession law prior to death, allowing her to retain Luxembourg.

I'll note that many European colonies in Africa - including Italian, German, Spanish, Portuguese and Belgian, aren't present here. Basically only the Brits and French have anything (the Ottoman bit isn't a colony), setting the stage for racing for Africa. Or limping, staggering, etc.

[Walter]

Basically only the Brits and French have anything

Well, looking at Africa on our map, it looks to me that the Dutch have a small coastal bit of Ghana and Liberia, the Portugese own a bit of Guinea-Bissau, Cape Verde islands, Sao Tome and Principe and the Spanish own Bioko, the Canary Islands and probably those small bits along the north coast of Africa. So eventhough the French and British have the biggest colonial bits of land in Africa, there are other nations present as well making things a bit more interesting there. :)

[Kaiser Kirk]

The little dabs of land at the edges of the map are not terribly consequential. I think France and Britain's holdings are far more substantive.
For my part, I was viewing the orangish bits in Liberia and Ghana as independent states rather than Dutch, much like the states near South Africa.  Be curious as the official word on that.