Army Set-up Discussions

[Darman]

How important do you all figure your armies are/will be?  I know it will vary according to national circumstances. 

British Empire's Army so far will be:
Colonial Forces
     2 Divisions Australian Light Horse
     2 Divisions Australian Infantry
     3 Divisions Canadian Infantry
     1 Division Canadian Light Horse
     2 Divisions New Zealand Light Horse
     3 Divisions South African Light Horse
     1 Division South African Infantry
     7 Corps subtotal
Indian Army
     2 Cavalry Divisions
     1 Cavalry Division (Reserve)
     8 Infantry Divisions
     3 Infantry Divisions (Reserve)
     7 Corps Subtotal
British Army
     2 Cavalry Corps
     7 Infantry Corps
     9 Corps Subtotal
23 Corps Total (1,150,000 personnel)

[Walter]

No idea. I'll play around with some figures later. I do know that I will do what I did with N3 and that is to take a specialist unit, break it up in equal pieces and then attach each piece to a corps.

[snip]

Well, going with the historical manpower from the Spanish-American War (300,000) and our 50,000/corp figure. The US army will have 6 corps that have seen recent combat, plus another 4-5 depending on how I am feeling. And one cannot forget the USMC. Call it 12 Corps done up as follows for my initial thoughts.

5 Inf Active (Highest tech level at start) [Cuba, South, Northeast, Ohio Valley, West Coast)
1 Marine Active (Highest Tech level at start) [Northeast]
2 Cav Active (Highest tech level at start) [West Coast, Midwest]
3 Inf Reserve (One level Down?) [Gulf Coast, West Coast, Midwest]
1 Cav Reserve (One level Down?) [Northeast]

[Logi]

Following the historical army sizes in Sino-Japanese War (120,000) and the not yet occurred Russo-Japanese War (300,000-500,000) ... the IJA should have:
6 corps with 3 of those having seen recent combat.

3 Inf Active (Highest, Exp) [Korea]
2 Inf Reserve (Lower) [Japan Home Islands]
1 Inf Active (Highest) [Taiwan]

I may add 2-3 at start depending on Sino-Japanese relations.

[Darman]

How important do you all figure your armies are/will be?  I know it will vary according to national circumstances. 

British Empire's Army so far will be:
Colonial Forces
     2 Divisions Australian Light Horse
     2 Divisions Australian Infantry
     3 Divisions Canadian Infantry
     1 Division Canadian Light Horse
     2 Divisions New Zealand Light Horse
     3 Divisions South African Light Horse
     1 Division South African Infantry
     7 Corps subtotal
Indian Army
     2 Cavalry Divisions
     1 Cavalry Division (Reserve)
     8 Infantry Divisions
     3 Infantry Divisions (Reserve)
     7 Corps Subtotal
British Army
     2 Cavalry Corps
     7 Infantry Corps
     9 Corps Subtotal
23 Corps Total (1,150,000 personnel)

The size of the British Expedition to South Africa during the 2nd Boer War was 350,000 men, or 7 corps.  I figured that there would be at least another 2 corps back in England and Ireland and scattered around the world.  The Indian Army was calculated directly from reforms instituted in 1903. 

The Colonial Contingents for the Boer War were approximately 150,000 strong (3 corps).  I used the Australian Army reforms in 1903 as the basis for an assumption that Australia has the capacity to place 100,000 men under arms, drawing on their few regulars, territorials, reserves, and militias, etc.  Then I assumed that Canada and South Africa have the ability to match Australia's manpower, while New Zealand can field only 1 corps total. 
Does this sound like a reasonable assumption?

[Logi]

I feel your numbers are a bit optimistic. Australia had 27,353 troops in 1900 (which is the start date, not 1903). We shouldn't push forward these dates at our leisure.
I don't think there was much of an army at all for New Zealand (which didn't have much of a population to draft for that purpose) historically and even a reason for one to exist in OTL and our TL. The difference is population is quite large. Australia has roughly 5 times the population of New Zealand and Canada was close to 7 times. A corp is about 6% of the total population in New Zealand, a further case that it's not feasible or historically likely.

I can see a reason for a British Army presence in Canada given the very real tensions between the USA and Britain during this period, but I don't think South Africa faces nearly the same threat. Neither do I think there was that many forces in South Africa historically. By your numbers, just the South African portion of your army would have made up all of the colonial forces of Britain in the Second Boer War. Clearly following the events of the war this was not the case, else there was be no real need for relief forces from Britain and other colonial lands. As far as I can tell from the AARs, the total forces were maybe a division at most. The same can be said of Canadian colonial forces (though not of the British regular army's presence there).

I'm ignoring India for the moment but these modifications would bring the army size down to ~18 corp. Including India we get ~16 corp probably, which is far more realistic.

I'll make clear my opinion on the 1903 reform issue: If it happened in 1903, you'll have to construct the corps in 1903 in a sim report. You can't assume they exist in 1900 when they haven't been enacted yet! If we were to follow that reasoning, I could have 10 corp instead of 6 corp at start without accounting for Sino-Japanese relations due to the Russo-Japanese War happening in 1905.

[snip]

I feel your numbers are a bit optimistic. Australia had 27,353 troops in 1900 (which is the start date, not 1903). We shouldn't push forward these dates at our leisure.
I don't think there was much of an army at all for New Zealand (which didn't have much of a population to draft for that purpose) historically and even a reason for one to exist in OTL and our TL. The difference is population is quite large. Australia has roughly 5 times the population of New Zealand and Canada was close to 7 times. A corp is about 6% of the total population in New Zealand, a further case that it's not feasible or historically likely.

I can see a reason for a British Army presence in Canada given the very real tensions between the USA and Britain during this period, but I don't think South Africa faces nearly the same threat. Neither do I think there was that many forces in South Africa historically. By your numbers, just the South African portion of your army would have made up all of the colonial forces of Britain in the Second Boer War. Clearly following the events of the war this was not the case, else there was be no real need for relief forces from Britain and other colonial lands. As far as I can tell from the AARs, the total forces were maybe a division at most. The same can be said of Canadian colonial forces (though not of the British regular army's presence there).

I'm ignoring India for the moment but these modifications would bring the army size down to ~18 corp. Including India we get ~16 corp probably, which is far more realistic.

I'll make clear my opinion on the 1903 reform issue: If it happened in 1903, you'll have to construct the corps in 1903 in a sim report. You can't assume they exist in 1900 when they haven't been enacted yet! If we were to follow that reasoning, I could have 10 corp instead of 6 corp at start without accounting for Sino-Japanese relations due to the Russo-Japanese War happening in 1905.

*pulls WWI Army out of his but* BRING IT!

[Walter]

*pulls WWI Army out of his but* BRING IT!

Sounds to me like I need to blow the dust of my book with WW1 stats then.  :)

[snip]

*pulls WWI Army out of his but* BRING IT!

Sounds to me like I need to blow the dust of my book with WW1 stats then.  :)

I actually have at home a four volume set on the US Military in WW1 that I got from my college library for free (the annual inventory clearance was always good to me). I have yet to really dig into it, but it will be a good resource.

[Walter]

I bought this book in Amsterdam on 12/12/2009 at 12:35 local time (yes, first thing I encountered in the book was the receipt :) ). It has a lot of stuff in there.

http://www.amazon.com/The-World-War-Databook-Combatants/dp/1854107666

[Darman]

I'm ignoring India for the moment but these modifications would bring the army size down to ~18 corp. Including India we get ~16 corp probably, which is far more realistic.

I'll make clear my opinion on the 1903 reform issue: If it happened in 1903, you'll have to construct the corps in 1903 in a sim report. You can't assume they exist in 1900 when they haven't been enacted yet!

I'm just going to comment on the Indian 1903 reforms... this was a reorganization and renumbering of regiments already in existence.  All the soldiers were there prior to 1903.  Without any hard numbers from 1900 or even the 1890s or 1880s I think it would be safe to assume that the Indian Army was approximately that size three years earlier given there was no expansion of the army during those 3 years. 

For the other colonial units I brought each colony up to at least one full corps.  Actual contributions to the Boer War were 1/2 Corps Australian Light Horse (plus a few more odds and ends straggling over), 1/4 corps Canadian Infantry (it was hinted the Canadians would have many more than that back home in their militia, how much more I wasn't sure), 1/4 corps New Zealand Light Horse (I got ambitious in increasing it to a full corps sorry :P), and 1/2 corps South African Light Horse (plus again, militia and a few odds and ends).  I figured none of the colonies would send away more than half their military forces (including militia, which is what all the colonial troops are). 

[Darman]

British Empire's Army so far will be:
Colonial Forces
     1 Divisions Australian Light Horse (militia)
     1 Divisions Australian Infantry (militia)
     2 Divisions Canadian Infantry (militia)
     1 Divisions New Zealand Light Horse (militia)
     1 Divisions South African Light Horse (militia)
     3 Corps subtotal
Indian Army (all -1 tech)
     2 Cavalry Divisions
     1 Cavalry Division (Reserve)
     8 Infantry Divisions
     3 Infantry Divisions (Reserve)
     7 Corps Subtotal
British Army
     1 Cavalry Corps
     1 Cavalry Corps (reserve)
     4 Infantry Corps
     3 Infantry Corps (reserve)
     9 Corps Subtotal
19 Corps Total (1,150,000 personnel)

(all reserve and militia units will be -1 tech level below standard)

[Logi]

I wasn't looking at the Boer War for my figures on the Australian component. I was looking at their 1900 report on the strength levels on their army, total throughout Australia.¹ If indeed the Australians sent a division to help in the Boer War then they did send all their troops. In fact given this is the case, I would suggest all the colonies sent more than half their forces to fight in the Boer War.

As for India, according to "The Victorians at War, 1815-1914: An Encyclopedia of British Military History", the British had a colonial force reorganize to 3 corps in India in 1903. The manpower of the army is in fact listed as 142,000 in 1903. That's 3 corps in our system. In fact the size of the Indian army was constantly decreasing, it had been 205,000 in 1863 and 153,000 in 1887.

¹You can find the number in their Official Yearbook, but it's also in "The Making and Breaking of The Post-Federation Australian Army, 1901-09"

[Walter]

Following the historical army sizes in Sino-Japanese War (120,000) and the not yet occurred Russo-Japanese War (300,000-500,000) ... the IJA should have

Looking around a bit at wiki, for the First Sino-Japanese War, it gives 630,000 men for China and 240,616 for Japan. Those two figures probably includes navy personel, but using KISS, I would assume it is all army.

So 6-9 corps for Japan for a total of 300,000-450,000 men seems what one would expect, especially now that you added the Philippines to your territories. For China, I would think with some increase it would probably be somewhere between 750,000-1,000,000. Depending what types of corps will be used, it will probably be somewhere between 15 and 25 corps.

[The Rock Doctor]

I'm contemplating the Ottoman situation.

-Austria's weakened state would seem to reduce the need for Ottoman troops, but those Romanians and Greeks might still have ideas.  So kind of a neutral issue so far as generating the army is concerned.

-Balkans, being Ottoman, should provide more revenue for the Ottomans to fund their army, but may require an additional security presence to keep the hardline nationalists down, even if most of the populations are being won over to the "Ottomanization" program.

-Not sure what to make of Egypt.  A stronger Ottoman Empire may have more direct control over the Egyptians than historical, thus an Ottoman armed presence on the Nile.  Alternately, I retain the quasi-independence of Egypt and build the Egyptian army separately. 

-There's probably places - North African coast, the Persian Gulf - where garrisons in 1-3 citadel forts probably makes more sense than deploying a corps of troops.

-For the 1912 Balkan Wars, the Ottomans mobilized ~315,000 troops against the Balkan powers and another ~30,000 against the Italians in Libya.  One assumes there are probably some troops still keeping an eyeball on Russia and Persia at the time.  So ~400,000 troops then might be reasonable.  How that translates to 1900 is not clear.