When restart ?

[Jefgte]

I propose
Basic Fleet to have something to start=> 1895 - 1900
START of the game 1900

With a restart in 1900, we could have all the important technos progression.
1905 => Dreadnought & Turbines
1910 => Super Dreadnought
1915 => Early aircraft => first armored vehicles
1920 => Early carriers => early Tanks

[snip]

Logi has a scenario in mind that (IIRC) he is planing on presenting this weekend.

[Darman]

Logi has a scenario in mind that (IIRC) he is planing on presenting this weekend.

Without knowing Logi's scenario, I would prefer a 1900 start time. 

[Logi]

I'll map out a very simple outline of the plan. I'm not very good at story-wise details so I apologize in advance for the crudeness!

The plan is POD and sim start to be roughly between or during Franco-Prussian War and Sino-Japanese War. Primarily because the FP war provided the backbone for WW1, and SJ war provided the backbone for the rise of Japan and WW2 in the Pacific. At the same time I want to avoid the "Age of Sails" because of SS difficulties.

~1875 ---> POD, Murad V is... more normal and moves Ottoman Empire towards democratic reform, Ottomanism gains much more strength than OTL. Cuban Independence after winning the Ten Year's War.
1880 ---> Ottoman Empire becoming a Constitutional Monarchy, Austria-Hungary wages war on Ottoman Empire to prevent resurgence.
~1882 ---> Austria-Hungary loses badly, which leads to the "Eastern Crisis" as OTL... except around Austria rather than the Ottoman Empire. Austria=Hungary is partially partitioned.
1885 ---> Player start simming at Diplomatic Level, China-Japan can script SJ war if it happens between them. A different outcome is encouraged between China-Japan players.
1898 ---> Boxer Rebellion if Japan wins SJ war. Spanish-XX War resulting in Spain losing control of the Philippines (not to USA!).
1900 ---> Sim start

The Result of Eastern Crisis


The reason behind this timeline is four-fold:
1) Reducing number of major nations (Spain & Austria-Hungary are basically non-players at this point)
2) Shifting away from the European Dominance Narrative
3) Ottoman Empire as buffer against African Colonialism. Works better than traditional SAE narratives due to proximity to threats to African expansionism by said buffer.
4) A 1900 start date, avoiding the "Age of Sails" and most of the Predreadnought era (which is quite stale IMO).

[snip]

That looks good to me.

[Darman]

Looks good to me too.  A few questions though:
1) Does the Franco-Prussian War happen?  Or will that be scripted by the German/Prussian and French players?  (Or it could possibly be used as an opportunity to sim at the strategic level to test whatever our new system will be?)

2) Do the French, Dutch, British still have their colonies?  And which ones? 

3) When can we start building our fleets?  1890 or 1895?  Or will we use a system where we get a BP discount for building older (but slightly obsolescent) vessels? 

[snip]

Looks good to me too.  A few questions though:
1) Does the Franco-Prussian War happen?  Or will that be scripted by the German/Prussian and French players?  (Or it could possibly be used as an opportunity to sim at the strategic level to test whatever our new system will be?)

2) Do the French, Dutch, British still have their colonies?  And which ones? 

3) When can we start building our fleets?  1890 or 1895?  Or will we use a system where we get a BP discount for building older (but slightly obsolescent) vessels?

With regards to the FP war, it happens as historical.

I assume so, the only territory that I am aware of changing hands is the Balkins as outlined above, and the Philippines going to someone other then the US [Sidenote: I presume all the Caribbean territories taken by the US in OTL are still US-owned in game?]

I to would like to know the answer to this.

[Darman]

I assume so, the only territory that I am aware of changing hands is the Balkins as outlined above, and the Philippines going to someone other then the US [Sidenote: I presume all the Caribbean territories taken by the US in OTL are still US-owned in game?]

I presume so, since he didn't mention any of that.  Other than Cuba, which is independent. 

[Logi]

1) I'ld like to the Franco-Prussian War to happen par course. However the French-German players use it to test out the system on the side since I don't know if they will have as active a role in the period before the start! The Race of Africa being substantially hindered by Ottoman presence in the region. The usual conduits of North Africa will not really be available.

2) Most of North Africa and the Middle East will be held by the Ottomans as historically before it's dissolution so not much room for colonies there. Ottomans will also probably try to reclaim Libya, Tunis, Algiers, and Greece.

Libya will still be French so there is potential for conflict there.

However all other colonies are kept as is. British Raj, etc.

The US will still hold it's Caribbean territories. The only change is Cuba is independent.

3) Hm. I think to keep things simple -> All nations receive 3x 1900 BP to build an initial fleet based in 1890. Exceptions are UK and China which will receive 5x of 1900 BP instead to reflect their huge historical navies. Of course, as evidenced by China historically, having a large navy means nothing compared to how it's maintained! ;)

[snip]

Do you have the BP figures handy so we can get to work on that? What about tech levels? Build times? Springsharp Version?

[Darman]

Do you have the BP figures handy so we can get to work on that? What about tech levels? Build times? Springsharp Version?

Tech levels should be pre-1900.  Build times should be mostly irrelevant, if you plan on using them then they are already in the rules. 

[Logi]

As Darman stated the tech levels will be pre-1900. Build times should not matter since the fleets are assumed to have been built before the sim start date. Specifically, I think it would be good to standardize as all ships being laid down in 1890.

Since the ships will enter the sim with 10-years life on them, I think they will soon head for the breakers, hence laid date is less of a concern.

As for Springsharp, I don't know. Do we prefer SS2 or SS3?
Or do we want to wait for me to release my own Springsharp since it's just lacking a GUI/CLI (haha no, don't use buggy software). It's also been in that state for about a month so I wouldn't expect miracles.

As for BP figures, I think we can use some of the figures from our 1860 start document with some adjustment (namely Germany-Russian increase and Chinese decline).
Here's a "first look" for the major nations (US, Britain, Germany, France, Russia, Ottoman Empire, China, ~Japan~)
Nation --- Thousand Ton of Steel Production --- Converted to BP
USA: ~7,289 --->  31 BP
ENG: ~4,559 --->  24 BP + 4 BP (IND)
GER: ~4,538 --->  24 BP
FRA: ~1,281  ---> 12 BP
RUS: ~  831 ----> 10 BP

TUR: ~  700 ---->   9 BP
CHI: ~  300 ---->   6 BP ---> Note prior to SJ war and other rebellions in ~1870-1880s this was double. Hence a better China start ~ 12 BP instead.
JAP: ~  120 ---->   4 BP ---> Note JAP win for SJ war means War Indemnities from CHI --> ability to growth faster at start of sim due to more revenue

Ottoman Empire figure is produced by cutting some from Austria-Hungary and assuming investment far beyond historical.
I used French production as base and flattened via Square Root. Then some minor adjustments were made.

[snip]

I think it would be good to standardize as all ships being laid down in 1890

As for Springsharp, I don't know. Do we prefer SS2 or SS3?

USA: ~7,289 --->  25 BP

I don't like that at all, seems quite ahistoric to me. I think that we should apply the build rules as given. It will not effect the majority of designs, mostly just big ships layed down close to the deadline.

I vote SS3, just because of the improvements to the gun section. Seeing as there are major gun tech increases during our era, I think we need to have that.

Well, with that sort of BP I better be ready to kick somebody's but.

[Walter]

Like I said, if I play China I would like to have no foreign presence so that would mean no Opium War or Boxer Rebellion. Sino-Japanese War maybe, but no War Indemnities.

Of course, as evidenced by China historically, having a large navy means nothing compared to how it's maintained!

"Admiral! We cannot sail out to meet the enemy! There is no wind!!!"  ;D

[snip]

Like I said, if I play China I would like to have no foreign presence so that would mean no Opium War or Boxer Rebellion. Sino-Japanese War maybe, but no War Indemnities.

Of course, as evidenced by China historically, having a large navy means nothing compared to how it's maintained!

"Admiral! We cannot sail out to meet the enemy! There is no wind!!!"  ;D

Anything that happens after 1885 can be altered between the players involved. Anything before that is locked, if I am reading Logi's intent of things correctly.