Techology Discussion

[Logi]

This thread is for discussion on changes to the technology system.

Some examples would be changing the cost of outdated technologies, changing the way the limit on technologies researched per half is derived, etc. It would be good to keep in mind that suggested changes should not be significantly more complex than the vanilla N3 system

The N3 ruleset, the actual tech tree excluded:

Researching each technology will cost $1 each half-year.

However, the amount of money a country can invest in research is limited by its industrial capacity, expressed in BP - build points. The maximum is one-third of the country's BP, rounded up to the nearest whole dollar.  This includes research from scratch, developing naval guns and mounts, and digesting technology acquired by tech trade or industrial espionage.
E.g. A country with 12.5BP can spend $5 on research. A country with 18BP can spend $6.

Normal research would take 2-3 years to finish. After 24 months of active research (with funding), the success chance is 20%, rising to 60% after 30 months and 100% (automatic completion) after three full years.  Research projects may be paused for one or more half-year, and resumed later without penalty.

If you want to keep research secret, it costs about twice the time. success chance is 20% after 48 months, raising 20% every six months thereafter.  So-called "Double-time" technologies such as Fire Control work on the same timetable even if done in the open.

To "digest" technology that was obtained from another country, $0.25 must be spent for two half-year turns. Doing this in secret doubles the cost.  One can not begin digesting technology from another country until the half-year after they successfully completed developing it.

Every technology has a year indicating the EARLIEST date research can be started.

You cannot skip technologies by tech transfer, e.g. researching right away the 1909 Ship propulsion technology after you bought the license, when you do not even have the 1905 technology. You have to get that technology first - and that would take only a year to finish.

Once 15 years has passed since a technology's 'first researchable' date, it is considered to be common knowledge. After that point, it may be researched by any nation as though it were being digested from another nation. Or in other words, $0.25 must be spent on that tech for two half-year turns. Techs that require double the time to research may not be digested in this way, nor can techs be digested this way in secret. Otherwise, all other normal research rules apply.

REMEMBER - TECHNOLOGY BECOMES AVAILABLE IN THE FIRST HALF YEAR AFTER SUCCESS IN RESEARCH (OR COMPLETING DIGESTION)

RESEARCHING NAVAL GUNS

Gun technology allows the development of better and better guns of the same caliber, represented in gun barrel length from thirty to sixty calibers, as represented in the table below in different colors.  It also allows for movement to larger bore diameters.  The numbers are the approximate muzzle energy in million lbs x ft^2/s^2.  If someone wants to use ahistorical designs, a good correlation for muzzle energy as a function of gun barrel length and bore diameter for guns of the 1900-1945 period is:

ME=0.04 x L x D^3

Where E is expressed in million lb.ft^2/s^2
L length of barrel in caliber
D diameter of barrel bore in inches

One may also opt to use period-appropriate historical guns if they prefer.

You can develop a gun, if:
- you have the relevant gun technology (the row)
- you already have a gun design not more than two spaces away (moving up/down and left/right) in the table above.




Costs

For guns larger than 8.27"/210mm, it takes two years to research, at a cost of $0.50 per half-year.
For guns no larger than 8.27"/210mm, the research time is the same, but the cost is halved to $0.25 per half-year.

There is no need to research single deck mounts (+/- hoists) and casemates for guns of 8.27"/210mm and smaller.  Turrets and multi-gun deck mounts for these weapons require six months per gun barrel, at a cost of $0.25 per half-year.

For any type of mount with a gun larger than 8.27"/210mm, six months of development is required per barrel, at a cost of $0.50 per half-year.

Guns and their mountings may be researched simultaneously.

A nation may acquire gun and/or gun mount licences from another nation.  The development time of this equipment is halved (with the half-year costs being unaffected), and the weapons may then be used as the basis for future development of new weapons.

[Darman]

One possibility is that instead of limiting the amount one can spend on research, you make the cost of subsequent research projects.  For example, if my nation is researching a new naval gun and mount and the cost is $3, and I want to start another research project, this time on engines for $1, then for every additional research project you pay more money, so the engine project would end up costing $2 every turn.  My third project would cost $2 more and the 4th would cost $3 more. 
Thoughts?

[Walter]

I was thinking of something like that as well, although with the original research budget idea still applied and a greater cost increase for every additional tech (2, 4, 6, 8, etc).

The increase in cost comes from hiring additional researchers but I would think that your nation would have a fixed team for research to begin with. Perhaps a fourth or a fifth of the BP for research instead of a third to determing how much your baseline research team can research for normal cost.

Another thing (and separate from the above) might be to be allowed to spend less than $1 on a tech's research although you would still have to spend a minimum of $4 and a maxiumum of $6 on the tech and rolls for success would be affected as well.

[Logi]

I think there are really two pressing issues with the research system:

1) It is tied to BP, which is ASB.
2) Naval Guns and especially their mounts is FAR too pricey.

I like the suggestions of gradual increase in research costs. I think that and also, removing the BP limit tie and replacing with high IC/Pop regions fixes the first issue.

To prove the second issue: A eight-barrel 2-pdr (Pom-Pom) mount takes 4 years and $2 total to develop. One could get quadruple 18" mount in 2 years for the same price. Makes any sort of "mg" infeasible. The price of a mount and gun is comparable to the price of research a technology and covers roughly the same amount of time. I find this is ASB territory... Maybe, reduce naval gun/mount cost by half?

[Darman]

Could possibly also have a sliding scale for guns/mounts, where larger units cost more and smaller units cost less?

[Logi]

It already does, large guns cost double that of small guns. The problem is the general price of gun/mounts are too high IMO. Perhaps a revision to $0.1 (small) and $0.25 (large) would be better. What do the other old-timers (since we've experienced the system first-hand) think about the matter?

[Walter]

Yes, the cost of the guns and the mount meant that I held back on those when I played Japan, giving priority to other techs.

[snip]

That could work, but what about keeping the costs a little higher (.25 small and .5 large) but adding in that researching the gun grants one mount for it outside of the single M&H allowed under the current rules. (ie, a player chooses an 11" gun gets a twin turret when it is researched, but would still have to do a trip separately) and then each additional mount after that costs .1 and .25 per half?

[Darman]

That could work, but what about keeping the costs a little higher (.25 small and .5 large) but adding in that researching the gun grants one mount for it outside of the single M&H allowed under the current rules. (ie, a player chooses an 11" gun gets a twin turret when it is researched, but would still have to do a trip separately) and then each additional mount after that costs .1 and .25 per half?

So you get the mount and hoist for the gun for free, plus one other mount of your choice? 

[snip]

Yes. I figure that if you are going to all the trouble to develop a gun, you can adapt a single M&H from the test stands and it would make little sense to develop a gun without a proper mount for it.

[Darman]

I can definitely agree to that. 

[Logi]

I think I can agree to that as well.

It prevents proliferation of guns without limiting mounts types too heavily. Historically there has always been far and away more mounts than guns. I honestly doubt it was as big a drain on research resources as N3 rules would have us believe.

[Darman]

I think I can agree to that as well.

It prevents proliferation of guns without limiting mounts types too heavily. Historically there has always been far and away more mounts than guns. I honestly doubt it was as big a drain on research resources as N3 rules would have us believe.

If I remember right, a few of us in one of the sims made an agreement to trade materials for ships that we had researched but our trade partners had not researched yet.  Don't know how legal the agreement may have been, but we never really got to test it out because the sim didn't last long at all. 

[Logi]

Depends. Complete ships? Covered under the rules of "foreign built". Portions of the ship? Illegal.

For good reason too, I can't think of a major case where ships were built in domestic parts using foreign components. Usually at that point the ship itself is built in foreign ports.

[Darman]

Depends. Complete ships? Covered under the rules of "foreign built". Portions of the ship? Illegal.

For good reason too, I can't think of a major case where ships were built in domestic parts using foreign components. Usually at that point the ship itself is built in foreign ports.

It only covered guns and mounts.