Techology Discussion

[Logi]

In any case, I think Snip's suggestion works fine. Don't forget there is still the licensing clause in gun/mount research. Hence other nations can still share gun/mount technology at half cost.

Perhaps we should discuss the specific costs of the gradual research cost increase proposal?
I think specifically, that it could be something like Walter's suggestion but using the IC/Pop limit instead of BP.

I'm going to make an example with a 300 IC /100 Pop nation (my template US). Only 200 IC is useable for research hence ~$410 -- 50% tax --> $210 available for use (including research). Then the US can research ~14 techs. That's out of a total player usable cash of $305 or ~68.8% of usable income.

Ideally I think ~8 technos for very wealthy nation (like US) is a good area. Hence maybe $2, $4, $8 --> powers of 2. In that case US is limited to ~6 technos, close to 7.

[Darman]

So are we going to separate guns and mounts from research tech on the tech lines?

[Logi]

As far as I know despite what it said on the tech tree, they had always been separated de facto. No one really paid much attention to it, I most certainly didn't.

If there is no disagreement, we can make it formal.

[snip]

I think the gradual cost is nice. Does not let the big nations run away with tech, but keeps them ahead. I would argue with a tiered cost system as Logi proposes, we could do away with any limit on research spending, as it will then become limited by how much of the overall budget it is allowed to take up on a per-player bais. Want a high-tech military over all branches? Be ready for it to be small, as you will be paying lots to keep that tech advantage. Player choice is better then hard coding IMO.

[snip]

I would like to propose the following amendments to the naval tech tree. Mostly these are to account for the start of the sim and moving a few bits around for better spacing. Changes in Bold

1890: Engine Year 1890, Simple and Complex Reciprocating Engines.
1895: Engine Year 1900
1902 : Engine year 1905, Max. non-VTE power 5,000 HP/Shaft,
        Direct-drive Turbines
1905: Engine year 1909, Max. non-VTE power 12,000 HP/Shaft
1909: Engine year 1912, Max. non-VTE power 20,000 HP/Shaft
1913: Engine year 1916, Max. non-VTE power 35,000 HP/Shaft
1917: Engine year 1920, Max. non-VTE power 40,000 HP/Shaft, Engine year = year laid down.

To quantify the level available at game start & for pre-start ships.

1880: Main guns in twin turrets, secondaries in casemate
1890: Mixed main armament or AQY with double turrets+casemates
1902: All-big-gun ship with wing turrets OR Superfiring turrets (restricted axial firing arcs)
1905: Improved turret hydraulics, Torpedo Bulkheads, triple turrets
1908: Superfiring turrets (unrestricted firing arcs), "All or Nothing" Protective Schemes
1912: Quadruple turrets, Sloped external belts
1920:  No restriction (high or low) on caliber of turreted guns

Adds an intermediary level between AQY and improvements to overall technology, while dealing with spacing a bit better. 1902 Level would have both options researchable simultaneously (think 1910 reserves), but you only need one to advance. Also removes a "theory" item from under the Armor tech and sticks it with Architecture, which makes more sense IMO.

Those are the only two I have for Naval, will record my thoughts on Land/Air next.

[Jefgte]

No superfiring turrets in 1902. That's too early => 1908 yes

Jef

[snip]

Would be about 1905/1906 before a ship could be layed down with them. Also, with the tech, you are accepting that you will only be able to fire your A turret over the front 30⁰ arc. Doing so with B will most likely kill the crew in A. About the time of USS South Carolina OTL, so works well in my book.

[snip]

A proposal for startup technology. Each nation starts with any technology with a 1890 or earlier date. Technologies for the 1891-1899 period become available 3 years after the date which they would be researched normally (assuming no successful roll, so 1895 engine tech on a 1898 ship for example) at a price of $6 (flat cost of development if completed) OR the maximum amount that would be invested by the first turn in 1900. Any tech dated 1900 or later must start research after game start.

[Jefgte]

...If you wish to propose a modification to the rules, please do so in the tech thread...

Of course, I did:

"Historical ship"

Jef  ;)

[snip]

...If you wish to propose a modification to the rules, please do so in the tech thread...

Of course, I did:

"Historical ship"

Jef  ;)

Im going to have to disagree with this proposal. Incorporating such commits bias in favor of those who want to redo OTL navies to the T and unfairly punishes those who wish to take a different path. Any historical ship that can be simed under our tech rules can be allowed in the game at such a time it meets the rules requirements and has a valid springsharp. If you wish to propose a modification to the Capital Ship Architecture tech to allow MMB ships earlier, I would be open to discussing such a proposal.

[Logi]

At the same time it might be interesting to look at the option of experimental ships. Currently our rules lack any semblance of the intermediate between heretic ideals (to the navy) and full-blown navy-wide adoption.

Perhaps if there was some sort of defined experimental clause, that would meet the desires of those who want to play a hard historical game and those who prefer more a more sandbox game.
A possible suggestion would be a player can build limited amounts (1-2 ships of the same class) where the tech is ~5 year advanced but paying double or even triple the cost in $ and 50% more costly in BP.

[snip]

At the same time it might be interesting to look at the option of experimental ships. Currently our rules lack any semblance of the intermediate between heretic ideals (to the navy) and full-blown navy-wide adoption.

Perhaps if there was some sort of defined experimental clause, that would meet the desires of those who want to play a hard historical game and those who prefer more a more sandbox game.
A possible suggestion would be a player can build limited amounts (1-2 ships of the same class) where the tech is ~5 year advanced but paying double or even triple the cost in $ and 50% more costly in BP.

The only amendment I would make to that would be that you would need to be researching said tech(s) at the time, or you must start research of the tech one turn before the ship completes. Just to make sure we do not get tons of one-offs flying out of the gates early with no real impact on design practice or tech level. An example using my proposal from above for a modified Capital Ship Architecture: The US is currently 2 turns into researching the 1902 tech for Superfiring turrets. In 1903, the Frigate USS Brandywine is layed down with a super firing arrangement of her B turret. Or something like this, with some storyline fluff: The Norfolk Shipyard begins construction of the Cruser USS Morgantown in September of 1901. Unlike her sisters, she is equipped with direct-drive turbines. The Navy begins investigating turbines shortly after (in January 1902) it becomes apparent the Morgantown cannot be altered back to VTEs.

[Walter]

The only amendment I would make to that would be that you would need to be researching said tech(s) at the time, or you must start research of the tech one turn before the ship completes.

I was thinking of that as well when I read the proposal. I would think that the number of experimental ships should be limited to 1 for what is being researched.

The Navy begins investigating turbines shortly after (in January 1902) it becomes apparent the Morgantown cannot be altered back to VTEs.

Actually it can be altered. It's more like the Navy does not want to spend the money on altering her.  :)

[Logi]

I think the amendment is fine, I guess the only question now is if this would solve Jefgte's issue with the tech rules.

[snip]

The Navy begins investigating turbines shortly after (in January 1902) it becomes apparent the Morgantown cannot be altered back to VTEs.

Actually it can be altered. It's more like the Navy does not want to spend the money on altering her.  :)

The idea there is that the Morgantown completes in early 1902, so construction is mostly done by the time they catch on.