Rollcall and Other Misc. Statistics

[Guinness]

From some of the stories I've heard from Finns about their compulsory service, I would not f*** with Finland, particularly in winter.

[Logi]

Here is some data, the GDP/GDPpc are from Madison for 1900. The Pig-Iron + Steel are in tonnes for the year 1897.

	GDP	GDPpc	Pig-Iron + Steel
Belgium:	25,069	3,731	1,024,666 + 616,604
Netherlands:	17,604	3,424
Indonesia:	31,748	7,04
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Portugal:	7,037	1,302
Spain:	33,164	1,786	297,100 + 101,800
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Italy:	60,114	1,785	12,500 + 57,250
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Sweden:	11,303	2,209	533,800 + 268,300
Norway:	4,185	1,877

I didn't include the ABCs since they have practically 0 Pig-Iron + Steel production, making them reliant sorely on foreign-purchases.

[The Rock Doctor]

How does that translate into IC and BP?

[Darman]

The big problem with the ABCs the last time we started a sim, was that it was very difficult to simulate a virtually zero-industrial power with a small population but lots of money to throw at buying ships overseas.  That is, honestly, a problem we have right now, where the biggest industrial powers have lots of excess capacity but a very small market. 

I do not believe we should allow any sort of BP-for-cash arrangement, only through selling vessels or equipment to other PC or NPC nations can we turn our BPs into cash.  So if we could get some idea of the budget available to the ABCs for their purchases then we could start producing designs or making offers to sell them older vessels.  We can always pretend that in the 1890s they got into a war that virtually exhausted them all, decimating their militaries, leaving them exhausted in 1900 but with lots of cash to burn rebuilding their shattered armies and navies. 

At best I'd give each of the ABCs 1 infantry division of troops and no ships worth counting.  Their upkeep would be ridiculously low, leaving them plenty of money to spend buying equipment and ships. 

[miketr]

I am also in favor of some type of mechanic to allow for export sales. 

Michael

[snip]

I am also in favor of some type of mechanic to allow for export sales. 

Michael

Logi and I are talking about this. When our idea is more fleshed out then "This would work!", one of us will post it.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Here is some data, the GDP/GDPpc are from Madison for 1900. The Pig-Iron + Steel are in tonnes for the year 1897.

Thanks Logi.
Interesting info.
The two which can field the largest armed forces, Spain and Italy, are at the same GDP/pc , but Spain has a bigger industrial base, with a better defensive line and SLOC. Belgium has the best industrial base, but little population - and probably could invest in colonies more. Sweden+ Norway have about the same population and less industry and sit between most of the real powers. NL would have purchasing power between Spain and Italy, plenty of room to expand in DEI, but no industrial base, and a horrid SLOC.

[snip]

Ok, so here is our idea on simulating export sales to nations currently without players. Thanks to Mike for the suggestion that sparked this proposal.

In a given turn's report, you will have the ability to add a sum of BP to a generic "Export" pool. Each BP added to this pool generates $1.25 of additional income^[1]. That BP then is added to the total pool for that turn which will be distributed to the NPC nations. Whose BP goes where is random^[2], unless you specify places you do not want it to go (ie, not shipping war material to a belligerent in a South American conflict). Players will then be notified of where the BP went and the mods will maintain a ledger of these transactions. That way if/when one of these minor nations gets picked up, they can converse with the player(s) of the nation(s) which exported BP in order to work out exactly what form that BP takes. It also gives us an idea of what each NPC nation is capable of, in case someone wants to pick fights.

[1] We picked this number as it is how much per-BP a nation would pay to construct a ship in a foreign yard. We are open to talking about modifying how much cash each BP generates, but do not want the number to be to high so as to make the player-to-player export market super expensive.
[2] It is expected that things would normalize after a while, with longstanding trade partners continuing relationships, but this would be several turns down the line so it would effectively be random for a time.

The goals of this mechanic are to provide an additional income source while also giving a floor for the export market to operate on. We feel it allows us to enrich this aspect of the game with minimal leg work all around

Any questions or comments?

[Walter]

Would the additional income be general, civilian or military income? Considering that BPs are military, I think that thye received cash should be military. This would help Germany with its high number of BPs and low amount of cash to better fund its projects and pay the upkeep of the forces.

[snip]

Would the additional income be general, civilian or military income? Considering that BPs are military, I think that thye received cash should be military. This would help Germany with its high number of BPs and low amount of cash to better fund its projects and pay the upkeep of the forces.

Seeing as BP is (mostly, we may require it for big things like very very long railroads and canal locks) military, the money should be military. Also since we are assuming that this BP is being exported as some sort of actual good, be it a warship, crate of rifles, etc, (to be defined when that definition is needed) it would be military money.

[Walter]

You forgot razor blades. A lot of men in South America want to look good and will have to shave themselves often.

... Oh wait! That'll make the received cash civilian. ;D

[Logi]

Here are the figures for various smaller nations.

	Pop	IC	BP
Italy	33.67	9	3
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Spain	18.57	6	5
Portugal	5.4	1	0
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Sweden	5.12	3	7
Norway	2.23	1	0
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Netherlands	5.14	3	3
Indonesia	45.1	5	0
Belgium	6.72	4	9
Luxembourg	0.25	0	0
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Persia	9.86	2	0
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Argentina	4.69	2	0
Brasil	17.98	2	0
Mexico	13.61	3	1

Netherlands + Indonesia is roughly equal to Italy.
Sweden and Belgium have roughly $0.5/BP and are major BP exports.
South America is decently wealthy (each nation in SA is roughly equivalent to a Sweden/Netherlands in $), but lack BP.

[Guinness]

I like the concept of export BP. It's a little bit of bookeeping overhead for the mods to track it though.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Thanks Logi, appreciate the extra work.

The Dutch and Italians do come out about the same revenue - $21, the Spanish 2/3rds, the Swedes & Belgians 1/3rd - albeit the last two would be selling BP.

I apologize in advance, but was there a decision made not to have production as great as the Original time line?

Looking at the stats, and the conversation above regarding selling BP to NPCs, I started to wonder. So I started to poke about- again, I apologize if this was addressed and intentional and I missed it, I've been busy and couldn't follow every post.

Just musing though- the Minas Geraes was ~19,000 tons.  She was built in 3 years, or 6 half turns. Meanwhile the San Paolo was also building,
Also, the Cruiser Bahia at ~3tL was building.  So historically Brazil managed to pay Britain for ~41tons light of ships in 3 years, or 6 turns- when she only generates <$30 in that time frame- and can't spend that all on warships.
Granted, Brazil was in a coffee/rubber boom at the time, so I don't know if that's by design, or if the bottom end of the IC #s need picking up.

Let's look at Italy- Revenue $21.37
H2/09 - H1/15 she built 6 dreadnaughts, at ~123k tons light, which she can afford as in those 12 halves, she's only going to make ~$256, it's just 48% of the budget right there. But she also built other ships and paid for infantry, aircraft, etc.  Doesn't quite make it in the military budget. Of course, here, with 3BP, she could only build 36,000 tons of vessels in those 12 halves - a significant shortfall from reality, and very hindering for a mid-rank power.

Even Japan - at ~$28.61 & 6BP- has issues.
but in 1905-11 (6 years, $171 military, 72BP) Japan built the Kuramas (~26), the 2 Satsumas (~36), 2 Tsukubas (~24), finished the 2 Kashimas (~18), launched the Kwachis (~16) and laid down 2 Kirishima BCs (~9?) plus her cruisers, destroyers, subs etc.. over 120BP worth of material just in capital ships.

[Logi]

The problem is the period chosen:

In 1900, the industrial expansion of Italy and Japan had not quite picked up steam yet. Leading up to 1909, for example, Italy mostly had to purchase foreign-built ships. A similar thing occurs with Japan. Another oddity - China's industrial power (BP-wise) is world-class in 1900. By the start of the next decade it had dropped 66%. Or we can take Russia, it's 1910 industrial capacity is a little less than 5 times that of it's capacity in 1897.

I have in mind three measures:
1) Reduce cost of new BP
2) Increase BP of nations in question
3) Have some modifiers for rising nations.
Now, I'm open to other suggestions on how to model this behavior, at the moment it is not.

FYI, Japan was about 2/3 the industrial capacity of Spain in 1897. By 1910, Japan's industrial capacity was about 5 times that of Spain.
Another note, I've made draft sim reports for Japan extending from 1900 to 1906 with 80%-95% of budget investment in the economy. The result is (if we presume no depression or other such things occur) $115.11 and 10 BP in 1906/H1.
Alternatively a focus on BP yields $49.41 and 13 BP in 1906/H1.


As for Brasil, it already has a 60% boost over it's historical GDP. I think we ought to attribute to the the coffee/rubber boom and call it a day.