Rollcall and Other Misc. Statistics

[Logi]

A question on economics...  There is a category on peoples reports called Research which appears to be a value if the region has more IC than Pop.

That's the maximum amount of  money that can be used for research. Recall in N3, this maximum value was determined by the amount of BP a nation had - in N6 it's determined by the regions with more IC than Pop.

The maximum research capability is sum of the excess IC (more IC than Pop) of all the regions.

[miketr]

A question on economics...  There is a category on peoples reports called Research which appears to be a value if the region has more IC than Pop.

That's the maximum amount of  money that can be used for research. Recall in N3, this maximum value was determined by the amount of BP a nation had - in N6 it's determined by the regions with more IC than Pop.

The maximum research capability is sum of the excess IC (more IC than Pop) of all the regions.

:o

So we are going to make up a region and stick extra IC in it, reducing our economy to be able to do research?  Is this what you were going for?

Michael

[Logi]

Research centers are built-up, industrialized areas. Hence a region that has more IC than pop (which is "industrialized) produces research.

I'll give some examples:
10 Pop, 2 IC produces $0 research limit and $4.1 revenue
10 Pop, 12 IC produces $2 research limit and $22.1 revenue

The choice is whether to build up already industrialized areas in favor of higher research limit or spread the industrialization to other regions.  The amount given only works to the research limit, it doesn't not affect the economy.

[miketr]

Having a 'research center' does effect the economy.  It costs a full dollar on

Region	Pop	IC	BP	Revenue	Research
Berlin	2.00	3.00	2.00	5.20	1
East Prussia	5.50	2.00	1.00	4.55	0
Silesia-Posen	7.00	3.00	2.50	6.70	0
South Germany	11.00	4.00	3.00	9.10	0
Rhine-Westphalia	10.00	4.00	3.00	9.00	0
Saxony-Brandenburg	8.00	3.00	2.00	6.80	0
Hanover-S-H	6.00	2.00	1.00	4.60	0
Hesse-Thuringia	7.00	3.00	2.00	6.70	0
				0.00	0
Deutsch-Neuguinea	0.50	0.00	0.00	0.05	0
Total	57	24	16.5	52.70	1

vs.

Region	Pop	IC	BP	Revenue	Research
Germany	56.5	24	16.5	53.65	0
				0.00	0
				0.00	0
				0.00	0
				0.00	0
				0.00	0
				0.00	0
				0.00	0
				0.00	0
Deutsch-Neuguinea	0.50	0.00	0.00	0.05	0
Total	57	24	16.5	53.70	0

It costs a full $1 per economic of income.  Less than 2% I know but I am not getting what your objective is here with this rule.  You already have a limit on the amount that can be done per turn with the doubling rule $1 then $2 then $4, etc. 

By the way wiki is correct I was looking at the wrong columns in my economic data sheet for GNP values.

Michael

[snip]

Part of what we are trying to achieve with this mechanic is making it less of an obvious choice when it comes to how to build IC. By tying research money into the Pop:IC relationship, it does not create a clear optimum path unlike in N3 where it was plainly stupid to build IC in developed areas as it would be worth so much less to your economy in comparison to an undeveloped region. So now nations have a choice when growing, more money overall or being able to spend more on research. It might be a bit odd to work around at start, but do remember that IC costs siginfigently less this time around so it is easier to grow. With your current budget, you can add 2 IC per turn without much effort.

[miketr]

Well yes $10 per IC is much cheaper to be sure. 

I just don't get why you have two unrelated mechanics to limit research is all.

Michael

[Logi]

A nation that is wealthy is not necessary a leader in research. Rather it depends on the level of industrialization. That is what this rule is encapsulating.

A nation A of 100 mil and 20 IC has an annual revenue of $50.
A nation B of 10 mil and 20 IC has an annual revenue of $31.

A is wealthier in annual revenue than B, but we can tell A is also far less industrialized - hence far less likely to be a leader in research. If we simply use the double rule, that does not preclude nation A out-researching B, which realistically is not likely. Hence the existence of the research cap rule.

The research cap rule is just a modification of the BP-based research cap rule of N3, just more realistic. If you want to know why... I can talk to you about the figures, capital costs, etc. but I don't think that would be very interesting. Remember the reason for the BP-based research cap was the same as this: an industrialized nation is more likely to research more than a non-industrialized nation.

Edit: The double rule is meant to encapsulate the increasing cost to remain at the frontier of multiple technologies, regardless of industrialization level. The rules deal with different things.

[snip]

I can also add another reason behind having the two rules. Logi and my previous post already covered the Pop:IC portion of the cap, and Logi touched on some of the real-world logic behind the escalating costs. However, that feature also does something else for the game; it makes it that no one nation can truly research everything on its own  as happened in N3. As you can probably recall, the big nations like France and Rohan got to a point where they would be able to just research everything outright and not have to interact with the rest of the world. By having the escalating costs in conjunction with the advanced tech rules^[1], it makes it extremely unlikely that any nations will be able to go out and research everything and therefor keep technological markets and differences open.

[1] From the Research rules: Every technology has a year indicating the base year for the research to be started. Starting after or before this year will modify the cost of the technology, making futuristic technologies (as compared to the current sim year) harder to research and earlier technologies easier to research. This modification of the cost is fixed at the moment research on the technology is began and does not change no matter how many years past in between starting and finishing

[miketr]

I don't buy the rationalizations you guys are putting forward.  At the same time I am not interested in arguing the point either.  So thank you for your explanations. 

Michael

[miketr]

So we buy all of our naval infrastructure?  Out of the BB spending spree?

Michael

[The Rock Doctor]

Yup.  The BP, anyway.  We ignore the cash bit.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Consider me... sorta interested.  My only reservation is I have said yes twice before and then nothing happened / I  lost interest.  So if someone else shows up in the next day or so and says "I WANT Germany!!!!"  Its theirs.

Michael

It is somewhat ironic that I'll be graduating from training this Friday, and so after 3 months I am about 1 week from being able to commit or not commit.  While I had started tinkering, she's all yours.

So..I think that's all the majors...which means Rocky's prediction looks to be off :)

[snip]

Consider me... sorta interested.  My only reservation is I have said yes twice before and then nothing happened / I  lost interest.  So if someone else shows up in the next day or so and says "I WANT Germany!!!!"  Its theirs.

Michael

It is somewhat ironic that I'll be graduating from training this Friday, and so after 3 months I am about 1 week from being able to commit or not commit.  While I had started tinkering, she's all yours.

So..I think that's all the majors...which means Rocky's prediction looks to be off :)

Its your guy's call if you want to swap things around. We can always sort of what someone like Italy or Spain or the ABC's has.

[Kaiser Kirk]

No no no,
I find the timing truly amusing, but Miketr's got it and he's stuck with it :)

Even now, until I get back to real life, I can't say what my level of interest, free time and ability to commit really will be. There's been some nights I've had time to kill/ didn't want to study, so I've tinkered with first AH (Nav5), Ottomans, Russians, then Germans as a way to kill the time.

My POD was to be King Frederich surviving the cancer and surgery, leading to Friedrich Von Hollman being placed in charge of the Navy instead of Tirpitz (who would stay in charge of torpedo craft dev) and you'd see a lot of long range German cruisers/ raiders as the oceanic component :) 

However, if Miketr would like limiting dimensions for vessels on the Lugwig Canal, Rhone-Rhine Canal, and upper & lower Rhine...I happen to have those :) 

[miketr]

A question on German startup numbers.

The BP and IC totals are correct?

16.5 IC and 24 BP?  I assumed before that they were reversed.

Michael