Rollcall and Other Misc. Statistics

[The Rock Doctor]

Ottomania is still running wild, but it paused to take a breath.  Now that the army stuff is up, I'll get to reporting.

Nice to Guinness again.

[Guinness]

Ok, I've been researching the Russians, I'm hoping to start working on startup later today.

I look forward to tweaking the Ottomans. :)

[Guinness]

Question/topic: the Russians in the Nverse traditionally had no economic/political subdivisions. I suspect I could mostly get away with that, but I was thinking that a few make sense, including Finland, something in the trans-Caucuses, and maybe breaking out the Far East. Thoughts?

[snip]

Question/topic: the Russians in the Nverse traditionally had no economic/political subdivisions. I suspect I could mostly get away with that, but I was thinking that a few make sense, including Finland, something in the trans-Caucuses, and maybe breaking out the Far East. Thoughts?

Somewhere we decided that each country needed to be divided into at least 4 regions.

[Logi]

Dividing up Russia to: European Russia, Siberia, Russian Central Asia, Finland, and Caucasia would probably be my division if I was playing Russia. As Snip mentioned, homelands are required to be split into at least four regions.

[Walter]

Okay just looked at Japan's spreadsheet...

Why are the Northern Mariana, Spratly Islands, Caroline Islands, Marshall Islands and Solomon Islands Japanese? Looking at the map, I don't think they should be on Japan's property list, otherwise I might just as well ignore everything and evertyone and add a few bits of land to China's list. :-\

Another thing is that the spreadsheet shows the weirdness of the research rules. Shikoku does not strike me as the region for Research. Honshu or Kyushu seems more logical regions. Looking at China, the way I have currently broken it up means that I do not get any research cash from the regions... and probably never will in the game unless I put ICs in illogical regions (Mongolia or Uyghur) or split it up even more so that I end up with an entry for Hong Kong and/or Shanghai to dump my ICs in to create anything for the research budget.

Also should you not use whole ICs?

[Walter]

Another thing. I noticed with the start up stuff that Darman is spending BP on coast defense guns and Rocky mentioning it, yet in the Army Set-up Discussion thread, it was indicated that it would fall under the declared stuff like the army and fortresses. I have not seen anything from the mods to indicate that after April 14 they changed their minds again and decided to have the coast defense guns coming from the startup BPs.

[The Rock Doctor]

I just figured it'd be a pain in the butt to find actual data on Ottoman forts, so would simply pay for the BP out of pocket. 

[snip]

Another thing. I noticed with the start up stuff that Darman is spending BP on coast defense guns and Rocky mentioning it, yet in the Army Set-up Discussion thread, it was indicated that it would fall under the declared stuff like the army and fortresses. I have not seen anything from the mods to indicate that after April 14 they changed their minds again and decided to have the coast defense guns coming from the startup BPs.

We did not change our minds, they are still declared.

[Logi]

Why are the Northern Mariana, Spratly Islands, Caroline Islands, Marshall Islands and Solomon Islands Japanese? Looking at the map, I don't think they should be on Japan's property list, otherwise I might just as well ignore everything and evertyone and add a few bits of land to China's list. :-\

Well the USA, Britain, and Japan met together and discussed how the Pacific pie was to be split. That was part of the distribution we agreed on.

Another thing is that the spreadsheet shows the weirdness of the research rules. Shikoku does not strike me as the region for Research. Honshu or Kyushu seems more logical regions.

Why do you feel that way? I feel Kyushu would rather be the opposite of where research should happen. The Boshin rebels came from Kyushu and fleed back to there when they were defeated. They had to be purged eventually, but Kyushu was their base of operations.

Shikoku is securely located, surrounded by Honshu and Kyushu in the direction of the most likely threats (China & Russia). In addition, it is located opposite of the Kure Naval District, which was one of the most advanced shipbuilding facility in Japan OTL. In addition, you don't want to industrialize a region that is heavily populated / already built up. It makes the process more expensive (clearing existing buildings and forcing more people off their land) and makes it hard to localize the effects of the experiment (which industrialization is).

We can draw parallels to the Chinese EEZs in the modern era, Shenzhen and the rest were worthless, impoverished, and tiny villages. Thus any side-effect of industrialization could be localized and nothing of great value would be lost if things went wrong.

Looking at China, the way I have currently broken it up means that I do not get any research cash from the regions... and probably never will in the game unless I put ICs in illogical regions (Mongolia or Uyghur) or split it up even more so that I end up with an entry for Hong Kong and/or Shanghai to dump my ICs in to create anything for the research budget.

I don't see a problem with the Hong Kong / Shanghai way.... although I wouldn't use Hong Kong. Hong Kong is nothing more than an extremely poor fishing village, like Shenzhen in this period. Without the British controlling Hong Kong, there are no natural incentives for Hong Kong to develop as opposed to Guangzhou. Even then Guangzhou had various reasons it wasn't very developed.

It's just a reality that in 1900, regions where China was poor was extremely, starving to death in the countryside, poor. Cities did often have more GDP than the rest of the next few provinces combined.

In terms of per capita consumption of foreign goods, the average in the 1872-1900 period was 50 custom tael in Shanghai, 17 custom taels in Hankou, and 5 custom taels in Guangzhou¹. That means the foreign import consumption was ~$30.67 for Shanghai, ~$10.43 for Hankou, and ~$3.07 for Guangzhou in foreign consumption alone. Considering that Maddison gives the Chinese GDPpc in 1900 as $545 in 1990 USD, which is ~$34.71 in 1900 USD. Shanghai citizens spending 89% of what their wages would approximately be on limited foreign goods does not sound realistic.

The estimated daily wage for Beijing dwellers was ~9 grams of silver per day². That works to roughly a quarter of a Tael a day. Working backward, this is roughly 14.6 cents (in 1900 USD). Even if the worker works only half of the year (365/2), his annual income is still roughly $2664.5, far more than the Maddison national-wide average of $545. More realistically, assuming a 5-day work week (might have been 6) the wage was $3796 in nominal terms. According for purchasing parity as measured from a basket of goods, most predominately that of grain, these cities dwellers' purchasing power was just as high, if not higher, than their European counterparts.³ This applies Japan, the rest of China, and parts of southeast Asia.

¹Institutions and Comparative Economic Development by M. Aoki, T. Kuran, G. Roland
²Wages, Prices, and Living Standards in China, 1738-1925: in Comparison with Europe, Japan and India by R.C. Allen, J-P Bassino, D. Ma, C. Moll-Murata, J.L. van Zanden.
³Global Disparities Since 1800: Trends and Regional Patterns by M. Shahid Alam

Well, you didn't need to know all that. It's just something I've been meaning to research about, but never found the time to. The conclusion, in short, is that having a few city as separate regions (especially since Chinese cities are much larger than their European counterparts) is perfectly feasible and historically plausible.

Also should you not use whole ICs?

I don't think it's a big deal, but I'll correct that I guess.

Another thing. I noticed with the start up stuff that Darman is spending BP on coast defense guns and Rocky mentioning it, yet in the Army Set-up Discussion thread, it was indicated that it would fall under the declared stuff like the army and fortresses. I have not seen anything from the mods to indicate that after April 14 they changed their minds again and decided to have the coast defense guns coming from the startup BPs.

It is as Snip says.

[Guinness]

Coast defense is declared? Cool. *rubs hands together*

How about inland forts?

[snip]

Coast defense is declared? Cool. *rubs hands together*

How about inland forts?

Declared. The reason we do that is everyone had different OTL doctrines, so it felt unfair to try and shove everyone into the same box right out of the gate.

[Walter]

Well the USA, Britain, and Japan met together and discussed how the Pacific pie was to be split. That was part of the distribution we agreed on.

Considering that on the map the Solomons are British, it seems to me that this decision was made after things were set on the map so I can't quite agree with your decisions there to just grab and split up things that you guys do not own. Marianas, Carolines and Marshalls should either be neutral as marked on the map or German as OTL. Now if Britan wants to give the Solomons away to Japan, I have no problem with that, but considering that on the map British ownership of the islands is already fixed for the start, that should be something to be done post 1/1/1900, not before 1/1/1900.

Also Spratly Islands are not Pacific so should not have been included in such an agreement.

Why do you feel that way? I feel Kyushu would rather be the opposite of where research should happen. The Boshin rebels came from Kyushu and fleed back to there when they were defeated. They had to be purged eventually, but Kyushu was their base of operations.

True, but Kyushu has something that Shikoku does not have: Nagasaki. During the Edo period, all foreign trade went through there so any foreign technology stuff and knowledge getting into Japan goes through there so it makes more sense that anything research related would be done there.

In addition, it is located opposite of the Kure Naval District, which was one of the most advanced shipbuilding facility in Japan OTL.

Which is why it makes more sense for research to be coming from Honshu instead of Shikoku. To me, it is just weird. You have more than half of Japan's ICs in Shikoku. That is like me putting half of China's ICs in Xinjiang or Mongolia.

I don't see a problem with the Hong Kong / Shanghai way.... although I wouldn't use Hong Kong. Hong Kong is nothing more than an extremely poor fishing village, like Shenzhen in this period.

That is true, although that what you say would not be correct if I were to put half of China's ICs in the Hong Kong region. ::)

I don't think it's a big deal, but I'll correct that I guess.

Well, I don't really have a problem with it, but since we tried to get whole ICs with the previous versions of Navalism, I thought that that might apply here as well. Still, because we only build whole ICs, I think that a broken IC should be considered an incomplete IC and not produce anything.

[Logi]

Considering that on the map the Solomons are British, it seems to me that this decision was made after things were set on the map so I can't quite agree with your decisions there to just grab and split up things that you guys do not own. Marianas, Carolines and Marshalls should either be neutral as marked on the map or German as OTL. Now if Britan wants to give the Solomons away to Japan, I have no problem with that, but considering that on the map British ownership of the islands is already fixed for the start, that should be something to be done post 1/1/1900, not before 1/1/1900.

I don't see the problem with islands switching hand... they all literally have 0 Pop, IC, and BP, making them irrelevant to sim reports. Also, diplomatic maneuvers start in 1885, so the minor colonies can still be shuffled around.

True, but Kyushu has something that Shikoku does not have: Nagasaki. During the Edo period, all foreign trade went through there so any foreign technology stuff and knowledge getting into Japan goes through there so it makes more sense that anything research related would be done there.

... By that logic, under Deng, Shanghai - Jiangsu/Anhui should be been the Special Economic Zones, not Xiamen and Shenzhen.
Areas around Nagasaki would already be developed, hence more costly. In addition, industrializing in an area rife with foreign influence is a bad idea in general.

Which is why it makes more sense for research to be coming from Honshu instead of Shikoku. To me, it is just weird. You have more than half of Japan's ICs in Shikoku. That is like me putting half of China's ICs in Xinjiang or Mongolia.

I disagree. Placing research and rapid industrialization in/near a high value areas is DANGEROUS to the stability of a nation. In addition, I said Shikoku is a easily defensible position, the same is NOT true for Honshu or Kyushu. Xinjiang/Mongolia are not easily defensible positions due to it's hostility to your own supply lines.

[Walter]

I don't see the problem with islands switching hand... they all literally have 0 Pop, IC, and BP, making them irrelevant to sim reports.

It is not about the Population or the ICs or the BPs or the revenue you get from them. It's about putting stuff on there and expand the sphere of influence.

Also, eventhough you won't get as much revenue as in other regions, ICs on those island groups give you quick additional research cash. Sure there are risks in doing that, but that is why you would be putting a port there and fortifications and coastal defenses.

Also, diplomatic maneuvers start in 1885, so the minor colonies can still be shuffled around.

To me the map is set as it is for a 1900 start and should be respected as it is. In my opinion, if minor colonies need to be swapped, it should be done after 1/1/1900. It should also involve colonies owned by those who want to swap things around. Like I said, Marianas, Carolines and Marshalls should either be neutral as marked on the map or German as OTL so ownership of those islands cannot and should not be determined by USA, Britain, and Japan. If they are neutral then after the start you should take your landing ships and go there to conquer them. If they were German then you should discuss with them about taking over the islands or take them by force from the Germans.



I don't really agree with you on Shikoku (except for the 'defensible' part). The Xinjiang/Mongolia example was not about defensibility. I'll put it different. When I think of China, I would expect that my industrial cities would be places like Shanghai, Tianjin, Guangzhou and Xianggang and not places like Urumqi, Bayingol, Ulaanbaatar or Uliastai. If I were to put more than half my ICs in Xinjiang/Mongolia, I am kind of saying that Urumqi and Bayingol/Ulaanbaatar and Uliastai are my main industrial cities and not Shanghai, Tianjin, Guangzhou and Xianggang.

So what about Japan? Are your industrial areas going to be Nagasaki, Kobe, Osaka and Yokohama or will it be Takamatsu, Matsuyama and Kochi? Looking at the spreadsheet, right now it is going to be Takamatsu, Matsuyama and Kochi.