United Kingdom start-up 1870

[KWorld]

No deck armor?

I was considering deck armor.  How useful would you believe deck armor to be during this era?

Historically, designers considered it necessary.  Why?  Not because of plunging fire (that would only ever happen if a ship was close to a fort on a bluff or cliff which could actually aim downwards), but because of shell detonations driving chunks of the shell downwards into the ship (and worse, out the sides or bottom).  Your belt armor is strong enough to keep out most projectiles until ranges get close (or the iron shatters), but a shell hitting your superstructure, bow, or stern could detonate and send pieces of the shell through the side or bottom of the ship.

Historically, the Devastation class had 2-3" of deck armor.

[Darman]

Added deck armor, and brought her up by 249 tons to 8000t light on the dot.  I want people's opinions on using Coles-Ericcson turrets rather than closed barbette mounts in 1870.  Which do you think is more appropriate?

Devastation, Great Britain Battleship laid down 1870

Displacement:
   8,000 t light; 8,264 t standard; 9,274 t normal; 10,082 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (305.00 ft / 305.00 ft) x 62.00 ft x (26.00 / 27.93 ft)
   (92.96 m / 92.96 m) x 18.90 m  x (7.92 / 8.51 m)

Armament:
      4 - 12.00" / 305 mm 14.0 cal guns - 700.00lbs / 317.51kg shells, 50 per gun
     Muzzle loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mounts, 1870 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 2,800 lbs / 1,270 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   18.0" / 457 mm   198.25 ft / 60.43 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
   Ends:   4.50" / 114 mm   106.73 ft / 32.53 m   9.45 ft / 2.88 m
   Upper:   18.0" / 457 mm   198.25 ft / 60.43 m   6.00 ft / 1.83 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   20.0" / 508 mm   10.0" / 254 mm            -

   - Armoured deck - single deck: 1.50" / 38 mm For and Aft decks
   Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm  Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 9.00" / 229 mm,  Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 5,407 ihp / 4,033 Kw = 14.00 kts
   Range 5,500nm at 8.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,818 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   472 - 614

Cost:
   £0.540 million / $2.159 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 140 tons, 1.5 %
   Armour: 3,472 tons, 37.4 %
      - Belts: 2,473 tons, 26.7 %
      - Armament: 530 tons, 5.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 383 tons, 4.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 86 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 1,325 tons, 14.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,063 tons, 33.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,274 tons, 13.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9,793 lbs / 4,442 Kg = 16.2 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.29
   Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 13.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 76 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.35
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.53

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.660 / 0.668
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4.92 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.46 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  15.00 ft / 4.57 m,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Average freeboard:      10.94 ft / 3.33 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 55.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 61.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 14,622 Square feet or 1,358 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 136 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 148 lbs/sq ft or 721 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.90
      - Longitudinal: 2.60
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[KWorld]

Coles-Ericcsons are totally appropriate for this design and this time period, and will remain so through the 1880s.  An open barbette design would also be appropriate now, they're coming into vogue historically.   It's probably too early for a closed barbette design.


No ram?

[Darman]

It didn't appear the historical designs had ram bows.  I would use these massive ships as stand-off weapons, designed to stand off and use their massive heavy guns to pound an opposing fleet as swifter vessels with rams and faster-firing guns move in. 

[Walter]

I would think that that is a ram bow at the front there on the historical design...

[Darman]

Hrm.  Totally missed that.  I've never understood the fascination of ramming by battleships anyways.  Besides which, in my humble opinion, the best tactic would be to lay the Devastation alongside the enemy and pound her, then move off.  Or just stand off and pound her.  A headlong charge into an enemy fleet would allow her to be raked by the lighter, faster-firing weapons of the enemy vessels.  Lets say each turret manages to kill one medium or light enemy combatant and she kills another with her ram.  Then Devastation dies. 

[KWorld]

The reason for the fascination with ramming lies in 2 actions: CSS Virginia vs USS Cumberland, and the battle of Lissa.  During the 1860s, the fear was that the defence (in the form of armor) was dominant over the offence, the guns simply could not penetrate the armor of heavy-weight ships.  Ramming had been shown to be effective at actually SINKING the enemy.  Given Devastations belt armor, lighter, faster firing weapons will be hard pressed to seriously hurt her (chew up the superstructure, yes, riddle the ends, yes, penetrate 18" iron, no).  The decks are a little light, so there's a bit of vulnerability there, but other than that.....

[Logi]

In naval history, there were plenty of times when navies of the world was lead astray by novel ideas.

In the late 1800s, ramming was seen as the only tactic possible to sink enemy ships. Weapons of the time up to the Russo-Japanese war were only able to disable enemy ships (soft kill) and unable to sink (hard kill). Of course, like many popular trends, it was blinded to the fact that often the rammer was harmed more than the ramie. The Battle of Lissa played an important role in shaping this trend because it showed that it was possible to sink ships by deliberate ramming. For the most part, ramming was accidental in nature before that.

Some other misguided trends: Torpedo battleships and the torpedo craze, the Japanese obsession with diving shells, Fisher's obsession with higher and higher speed on ships, etc.

[Darman]

Now has a ram bow, slightly thicker deck armor, and has more end belt armor to help support ramming as a viable tactic.  Is 7" enough or do I need more?

Devastation, Great Britain Battleship laid down 1870

Displacement:
   8,000 t light; 8,264 t standard; 9,274 t normal; 10,082 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (317.00 ft / 305.00 ft) x 62.00 ft x (26.00 / 27.93 ft)
   (96.62 m / 92.96 m) x 18.90 m  x (7.92 / 8.51 m)

Armament:
      4 - 12.00" / 305 mm 14.0 cal guns - 700.00lbs / 317.51kg shells, 50 per gun
     Muzzle loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mounts, 1870 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 2,800 lbs / 1,270 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   17.0" / 432 mm   198.25 ft / 60.43 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
   Ends:   8.00" / 203 mm   106.73 ft / 32.53 m   9.45 ft / 2.88 m
   Upper:   17.0" / 432 mm   198.25 ft / 60.43 m   6.00 ft / 1.83 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   10.0" / 254 mm            -

   - Armoured deck - single deck: 2.00" / 51 mm For and Aft decks
   Forecastle: 1.50" / 38 mm  Quarter deck: 1.50" / 38 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 9.00" / 229 mm,  Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 5,406 ihp / 4,033 Kw = 14.00 kts
   Range 5,500nm at 8.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,818 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   472 - 614

Cost:
   £0.540 million / $2.159 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 140 tons, 1.5 %
   Armour: 3,494 tons, 37.7 %
      - Belts: 2,475 tons, 26.7 %
      - Armament: 414 tons, 4.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 520 tons, 5.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 86 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 1,325 tons, 14.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,042 tons, 32.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,274 tons, 13.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9,903 lbs / 4,492 Kg = 16.4 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.31
   Metacentric height 4.0 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 13.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.34
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.49

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.660 / 0.668
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4.92 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.46 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  15.00 ft / 4.57 m,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Average freeboard:      10.94 ft / 3.33 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 55.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 61.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 14,622 Square feet or 1,358 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 135 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 147 lbs/sq ft or 716 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.90
      - Longitudinal: 2.52
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Darman]

another turreted vessel.  This time with masts. 

Monarch, Great Britain Battleship laid down 1870

Displacement:
   6,740 t light; 6,996 t standard; 7,927 t normal; 8,672 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (342.00 ft / 330.00 ft) x 58.00 ft x (23.00 / 24.81 ft)
   (104.24 m / 100.58 m) x 17.68 m  x (7.01 / 7.56 m)

Armament:
      4 - 12.00" / 305 mm 14.0 cal guns - 700.00lbs / 317.51kg shells, 50 per gun
     Muzzle loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mounts, 1870 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on sides, aft deck forward
      3 - 7.00" / 178 mm 16.0 cal guns - 115.00lbs / 52.16kg shells, 100 per gun
     Muzzle loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mounts, 1870 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck forward
     1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck aft
      Weight of broadside 3,145 lbs / 1,427 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   5.00" / 127 mm   198.25 ft / 60.43 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
   Ends:   5.00" / 127 mm   106.73 ft / 32.53 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     25.02 ft / 7.63 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   8.00" / 203 mm   110.00 ft / 33.53 m   6.00 ft / 1.83 m
     Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   6.00" / 152 mm            -
   2nd:   5.00" / 127 mm   3.00" / 76 mm            -

   - Armoured deck - single deck: 1.50" / 38 mm For and Aft decks
   Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm  Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 9.00" / 229 mm,  Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 4,743 ihp / 3,538 Kw = 14.00 kts
   Range 5,500nm at 8.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,676 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   419 - 546

Cost:
   £0.486 million / $1.943 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 177 tons, 2.2 %
   Armour: 1,668 tons, 21.0 %
      - Belts: 848 tons, 10.7 %
      - Armament: 365 tons, 4.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 378 tons, 4.8 %
      - Conning Tower: 77 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,162 tons, 14.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,019 tons, 38.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,187 tons, 15.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 714 tons, 9.0 %
      - Above deck: 714 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     7,806 lbs / 3,541 Kg = 12.9 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
   Metacentric height 3.0 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 14.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.52
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.40

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.630 / 0.639
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.69 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.17 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 40 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  15.00 ft / 4.57 m,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Average freeboard:      10.94 ft / 3.33 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 59.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 68.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 14,398 Square feet or 1,338 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 143 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 149 lbs/sq ft or 726 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.91
      - Longitudinal: 2.17
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Sail Plan
Half of natural speed (18 knots) is 9 knots for 5% of normal displacement, plus 4% of normal displacement to bring sailing speed up to 13 knots under sail, which totals 9% of normal displacement is allocated to sails and rigging.
Masts and raised forecastle and quarterdeck prevent 12" turrets from firing fore and aft.   

[Darman]

and now for a gunvessel of 300 light tons. 

Beacon, United Kingdom Gunvessel laid down 1870

Displacement:
   300 t light; 325 t standard; 420 t normal; 496 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (155.00 ft / 155.00 ft) x 25.00 ft x (9.50 / 10.62 ft)
   (47.24 m / 47.24 m) x 7.62 m  x (2.90 / 3.24 m)

Armament:
      2 - 7.00" / 178 mm 16.0 cal guns - 115.00lbs / 52.16kg shells, 100 per gun
     Muzzle loading guns in deck mounts, 1870 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck aft
     1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck forward
      2 - 3.75" / 95.3 mm 15.0 cal guns - 21.00lbs / 9.53kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1870 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck forward
     1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck aft
      Weight of broadside 272 lbs / 123 kg

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 260 ihp / 194 Kw = 10.00 kts
   Range 2,500nm at 9.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 171 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   46 - 60

Cost:
   £0.024 million / $0.097 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 15 tons, 3.5 %
   Machinery: 64 tons, 15.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 174 tons, 41.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 120 tons, 28.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 48 tons, 11.4 %
      - Above deck: 48 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     446 lbs / 202 Kg = 3.7 x 7.0 " / 178 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.39
   Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 9.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.22
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.12

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.399 / 0.422
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.20 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 12.45 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 31 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  5.00 ft / 1.52 m,  4.00 ft / 1.22 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  4.00 ft / 1.22 m,  4.00 ft / 1.22 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  4.00 ft / 1.22 m,  4.00 ft / 1.22 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  4.00 ft / 1.22 m,  4.00 ft / 1.22 m
      - Average freeboard:      4.08 ft / 1.24 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 64.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 39.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 2,384 Square feet or 222 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 189 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 53 lbs/sq ft or 259 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.97
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor

Sail Plan
Half of natural speed (12 knots) is 6 knots for 5% of normal displacement, plus 6% of normal displacement to bring sailing speed up to 12 knots under sail, which totals 11% of normal displacement is allocated to sails and rigging. 

[KWorld]

Hmmmm, a small sloop for sending messages?

[Darman]

Hmmmm, a small sloop for sending messages?

And for fighting river pirates.... the Beacon-class was essentially a colonial patrol and customs vessel.  I may have made it a little smaller than it originally was, she and her sisters were iron-framed and wood-hulls, so I might have had extra strength to play around with. 

[KWorld]

Now has a ram bow, slightly thicker deck armor, and has more end belt armor to help support ramming as a viable tactic.  Is 7" enough or do I need more?

Ramming will be viable with 7" armor.  In general, though, expect the rammer to be damaged by ramming, just not nearly as badly as the rammee (see HMS Camperdown).

[Darman]

Now has a ram bow, slightly thicker deck armor, and has more end belt armor to help support ramming as a viable tactic.  Is 7" enough or do I need more?

Ramming will be viable with 7" armor.  In general, though, expect the rammer to be damaged by ramming, just not nearly as badly as the rammee (see HMS Camperdown.

Oh I know.  Which is why I expect it to never use the ram.  These will be the last warships with rams (I personally find them stupid.).