Netherlands 1870 start-up

[Jefgte]

I note the high quantity of 37mm guns...
But, I don't undesrtand why 30 guns ?

Jef ;)

[Walter]

Not only that, below it, it says:

6 x Single mounts on sides amidships

... so 30 guns in six single mounts...

[Darman]

Not only that, below it, it says:

6 x Single mounts on sides amidships

... so 30 guns in six single mounts...

sorry, it supposed to be revolver guns, so I guess its 5 barrels per mount.  I really wasn't sure how to put that in. 

[Darman]

Koning der Nederlanden, The Netherlands Battleship laid down 1870
Barbette ship

Displacement:
   4,996 t light; 5,291 t standard; 5,520 t normal; 5,703 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (268.00 ft / 268.00 ft) x 50.00 ft x (19.00 / 19.55 ft)
   (81.69 m / 81.69 m) x 15.24 m  x (5.79 / 5.96 m)

Armament:
      4 - 11.00" / 279 mm 15.0 cal guns - 493.19lbs / 223.71kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in open barbette mounts, 1870 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 4.72" / 120 mm 45.0 cal guns - 44.49lbs / 20.18kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1870 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides amidships
      4 raised mounts
      30 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 30.0 cal guns - 1.10lbs / 0.50kg shells, 300 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1870 Model
     6 x 5-gun mounts on sides amidships
      6 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 2,184 lbs / 991 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   174.20 ft / 53.10 m   8.49 ft / 2.59 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm     93.78 ft / 28.58 m   8.49 ft / 2.59 m
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   174.20 ft / 53.10 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:         -            -         10.0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm   3.00" / 76 mm      6.00" / 152 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks: 1.00" / 25 mm For and Aft decks
   Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm  Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 2,554 ihp / 1,905 Kw = 12.00 kts
   Range 2,000nm at 7.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 412 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   319 - 416

Cost:
   £0.326 million / $1.303 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 174 tons, 3.1 %
   Armour: 1,824 tons, 33.1 %
      - Belts: 1,115 tons, 20.2 %
      - Armament: 493 tons, 8.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 217 tons, 3.9 %
   Machinery: 626 tons, 11.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,027 tons, 36.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 524 tons, 9.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 345 tons, 6.3 %
      - Above deck: 345 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     6,774 lbs / 3,073 Kg = 14.5 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 1.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
   Metacentric height 2.2 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 14.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 85 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.77
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.69

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and small transom stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.759 / 0.762
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.36 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.83 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 41 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  15.55 ft / 4.74 m,  11.46 ft / 3.49 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  11.46 ft / 3.49 m,  11.46 ft / 3.49 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  11.46 ft / 3.49 m,  11.46 ft / 3.49 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  11.46 ft / 3.49 m,  11.46 ft / 3.49 m
      - Average freeboard:      11.79 ft / 3.59 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 51.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 79.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 11,616 Square feet or 1,079 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 137 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 130 lbs/sq ft or 632 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.90
      - Longitudinal: 2.54
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Sailing Rig: Natural speed is 17.5kts, paying 5% of the ships normal displacement (300t) gives a speed under sail of 8.75 kts, plus an additional 1.25% of normal displacement to give an additional 1.25kts of speed under sail for a total of 10kts at an expense of 6.25% of normal displacement. 

[KWorld]

Isn't it too early for mount & hoist mounts, especially armored ones?

Interesting.  She's very fast under sail (assuming the wind's there to drive it), with unarmored guns.  So, kind of a clipperized HMS Monarch?

[Jefgte]

Isn't it too early for mount & hoist mounts...

SS calculate them for 1870 (?)

Heavy & semi heavy shells are not hand mooving.

Our ancestors were not stupid, they move 150kg shells with chains & hoist, I think.

[Darman]

SS told me for a barbette mounted battery i could only have barbette armor, so thats what I have. 

[KWorld]

Isn't it too early for mount & hoist mounts...

SS calculate them for 1870 (?)

Heavy & semi heavy shells are not hand mooving.

Our ancestors were not stupid, they move 150kg shells with chains & hoist, I think.

At this point in time, though, the armored mount and hoist mount isn't really available.  If you want traversing armored mounts, I think you're pretty much limited to Coles/Ericsson turrets at this time period.  Also, period hoists are likely to be a serious crimp in the rate of fire.

[Darman]

I can un-armor the hoist if that is your concern?  Or turn them into barbettes?  The information I had was unclear as to the secondary battery's dispositions. 

[KWorld]

I can un-armor the hoist if that is your concern?  Or turn them into barbettes?  The information I had was unclear as to the secondary battery's dispositions.

Looking at this picture: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/ZM_ramtorenschip_Koning_der_Nederlanden.jpg&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ZM_ramtorenschip_Koning_der_Nederlanden.jpg&h=537&w=800&sz=185&tbnid=J7opwM0EgHJCDM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=134&zoom=1&usg=__jsPLJL8cBAKQjG6-dtUY8n8pBEg=&docid=nAjG8YTfyKEXhM&sa=X&ei=NXtzUszEDeaY2QWUnYDIBA&ved=0CFUQ9QEwBQ ,
and the ones here: http://www.maritiemdigitaal.nl/index.cfm?event=search.getdetail&id=103006772 ,

it's pretty clear the original was a turret ship with the main battery in Coles/Ericsson type turrets.  I can't see the secondary battery anywhere, so I'd guess they were deck or broadside mounts, maybe added later or removed by the time of the model and the picture.

[Walter]

The page here
http://navalhistory.flixco.info/H/284135x53056/8330/a0.htm
indicates that the ship was built with them (and they should be 16 cal and not 45).

According to wiki, the Prins Hendrik der Nederlanden also have four 120mm guns:

Two 120-millimeter (4.7 in) Krupp breech-loading guns were fitted in the forecastle and another pair in the poop as chase guns.

It is quite possible that the guns on the Koning der Nederlanden are fore and aft as well. However, I don't think they are deck and hoist mounts and they don't have armor either.

[KWorld]

Ah ha.... if they were chase guns, in the forecastle and the poop, they'd probably be best simmed as end-mounted below-deck broadside guns, with a note saying they're actually bow and stern chasers versus broadside guns.

[Walter]

That is the case with the Prins Hendrik der Nederlanden. Wiki says that on the Koning der Nederlanden they're on the upper deck, but my guess is that they would still be bow and stern chasers. I would sim them as regular deck mounts.

[Darman]

HNLMS Java, Netherlands Sloop laid down 1870

Displacement:
   1,000 t light; 1,041 t standard; 1,205 t normal; 1,336 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (205.00 ft / 205.00 ft) x 31.00 ft x (13.00 / 14.11 ft)
   (62.48 m / 62.48 m) x 9.45 m  x (3.96 / 4.30 m)

Armament:
      1 - 5.90" / 150 mm 25.0 cal gun - 78.04lbs / 35.40kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading gun in deck mount, 1870 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck forward
      1 raised mount
      4 - 4.70" / 119 mm 18.0 cal guns - 38.74lbs / 17.57kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1870 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck centre
     2 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck centre
      Weight of broadside 233 lbs / 106 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2.00" / 51 mm   133.25 ft / 40.61 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 1,232 ihp / 919 Kw = 13.00 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 8.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 295 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   101 - 132

Cost:
   £0.082 million / $0.329 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 16 tons, 1.3 %
   Armour: 101 tons, 8.4 %
      - Belts: 92 tons, 7.6 %
      - Armament: 9 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 302 tons, 25.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 448 tons, 37.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 205 tons, 17.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 133 tons, 11.0 %
      - Above deck: 133 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1,034 lbs / 469 Kg = 14.4 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
   Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 12.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.38
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.511 / 0.521
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.61 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 14.32 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  13.60 ft / 4.15 m,  10.02 ft / 3.05 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  10.02 ft / 3.05 m,  10.02 ft / 3.05 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  10.02 ft / 3.05 m,  10.02 ft / 3.05 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  10.02 ft / 3.05 m,  10.02 ft / 3.05 m
      - Average freeboard:      10.31 ft / 3.14 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 77.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 4,117 Square feet or 382 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 136 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 64 lbs/sq ft or 311 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.89
      - Longitudinal: 2.89
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Sailing Rig: Natural speed is 14kts, paying 5% of the ships normal displacement gives a speed under sail of 7kts, plus an additional 6% of normal displacement to give an additional 6kts of speed under sail for a total of 13kts at an expense of 11% of normal displacement. 

[Darman]

Koning der Nederlanden, The Netherlands Battleship laid down 1870
Armoured Corvette (Broadside ironclad)

Displacement:
   4,580 t light; 4,810 t standard; 5,025 t normal; 5,197 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (268.00 ft / 268.00 ft) x 50.00 ft x (19.00 / 19.55 ft)
   (81.69 m / 81.69 m) x 15.24 m  x (5.79 / 5.96 m)

Armament:
      4 - 11.00" / 279 mm 15.0 cal guns - 493.19lbs / 223.71kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mounts, 1870 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 4.72" / 120 mm 45.0 cal guns - 44.49lbs / 20.18kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in broadside mounts, 1870 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck forward
     2 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck aft
      30 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm 30.0 cal guns - 1.10lbs / 0.50kg shells, 300 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1870 Model
     6 x 5-gun mounts on sides, evenly spread
      6 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 2,184 lbs / 991 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   174.20 ft / 53.10 m   8.49 ft / 2.59 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm     93.78 ft / 28.58 m   8.49 ft / 2.59 m
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   174.20 ft / 53.10 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   6.00" / 152 mm            -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks: 1.00" / 25 mm For and Aft decks
   Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm  Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 2,377 ihp / 1,773 Kw = 12.00 kts
   Range 2,000nm at 7.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 387 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   297 - 387

Cost:
   £0.313 million / $1.253 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 150 tons, 3.0 %
   Armour: 1,544 tons, 30.7 %
      - Belts: 1,105 tons, 22.0 %
      - Armament: 236 tons, 4.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 204 tons, 4.1 %
   Machinery: 583 tons, 11.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,973 tons, 39.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 445 tons, 8.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 330 tons, 6.6 %
      - Above deck: 330 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     6,101 lbs / 2,767 Kg = 13.1 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
   Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 13.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 86 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.79
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.72

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and small transom stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.691 / 0.694
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.36 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.89 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 39 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  15.55 ft / 4.74 m,  11.46 ft / 3.49 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  11.46 ft / 3.49 m,  11.46 ft / 3.49 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  11.46 ft / 3.49 m,  11.46 ft / 3.49 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  11.46 ft / 3.49 m,  11.46 ft / 3.49 m
      - Average freeboard:      11.79 ft / 3.59 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 53.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 80.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 10,934 Square feet or 1,016 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 135 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 130 lbs/sq ft or 634 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.90
      - Longitudinal: 2.73
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Sailing Rig: Natural speed is 17.5kts, paying 5% of the ships normal displacement (300t) gives a speed under sail of 8.75 kts, plus an additional 1.25% of normal displacement to give an additional 1.25kts of speed under sail for a total of 10kts at an expense of 6.25% of normal displacement. 
120mm broadside mounts arte bow and stern chasers. 
37mm guns are 5-barrelled 1pdrs (gatling-type)