Army Discussion

[Darman]

I'm re-animating an old thread by miketr about armies because I personally am just as interested in designing armies as I am designing navies.  Whether the mod(s?) want to even consider it is something out of my hands.  It would be optional, and as long as costs in our budgets are prepared on a per-corps basis and not a per-brigade basis (with possibly hundreds of brigades versus a dozen or two corps) and with the creation of standardized corps for those who aren't interested (which miketr allowed for in his original proposal, with 8 infantry/specialist brigades and 2 artillery/pack artillery brigades per standard corps) I think it is do-able.  Its really more for flavor than anything else, differences in composition of various armies' corps may or may not make a difference in combat effectiveness.  I know that myself personally I'm toying with the idea of "heavy" infantry divisions for the Royal Netherlands Army, i.e. divisions with heavy/siege artillery, field artillery, engineers, and infantry all-together under one direct commander because of the nature of most wars that the RNA would be fighting (defensive in nature, taking advantage of fortified lines, fortresses, field fortifications, and flooding of lowlands as barriers) which would be specialist-intensive (meaning engineers organic to the combat units) and the placement of strongpoints of heavier-than-normal "field" artillery as temporary fortifications. 

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/7002/brigadesbasicv31.png


http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/5615/brigadeswv30.png


http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/4571/brigadeatv30.png


http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/3796/brigadesexpandedv30.png

1.0   Unit Sizes
   1.1   Corps (XXX), base land unit of NAVALISM  made up of 50,000 men
   1.2   Division (XX), half of a corps, 25,000 men
   1.3   Brigade (X), one tenth of a corps, 5,000 men

2.0   Standard Brigades
   2.1   Infantry, troops trained to fight enemy troops on foot.  Cost see chart.
   2.2   Specialist, troops trained to fight lightly, fast and or in special environments.  Mountain (Alpine), Cavalry, Jungle, Naval Infantry (Marine) and Desert are typical specialist infantry formations.  In game terms there is no cost difference between line infantry and specialist infantry but specialist infantry only gains there movement bonus when employed with pack artillery.  Cost see chart.
   2.3   Artillery, troops equipped with weapons (field guns, howitzers, etc) to support the infantry.  Cost see chart.
   2.4   Artillery (pack), light weight guns designed to be highly mobile but at the price of greatly reduced firepower.  Cost see chart.
   2.5   Artillery (siege), heavy and slow form of artillery intended to reduce fortifications through direct fire.  Cost see chart.
   2.6   Tank (light), an armored fighting vehicle that weighs up to 20 tons.  Light tanks are faster than heavy tanks of the same generation.  Cost see chart.
   2.7    Tank (heavy), an armored fighting vehicle that weighs over 20 tons.  Heavy tanks have more fire power than light tanks of the same generation.  Cost see chart.

3.0   Non Standard Brigades
   3.1   Engineer, A manpower pool, tools and highly trained engineers able to speed up construction or destruction of such tasks like entrenchments.  Cost $0.5 and 0.05 BP
   3.2   Engineer (railroad), a highly specialized engineering unit that can only build or repair railroad lines.  Cost $1 and 0.1 BP
   3.3   Headquarters "HQ", an administrative unit to over see the operations of separate units.  An HQ could represent a nations General Staff, the command of an army or army group controlling several Corps and attached Brigades, the military command of several units far away from a nation's home land such as in a colony or perhaps an expeditionary force, etc.  Cost $0.25 and 0.0 BP
   3.4   Logistics (horse), all corps, divisions and even brigades are assumed to have their own integrated commissary units but some times circumstances might suggest the need for additional support.  Perhaps a campaign is being attempted far from a nations borders or over particularly hostile terrain such as desert or mountains.  The rule of is that a unit can support itself 100 miles / 160 km from a railhead and or its point of supply.  An greater distance requires additional logistical support.  Each logistics brigade can increase that support distance another 100 miles / 160 km for up to one corps or ten brigades.  Each additional corps requires another logistics brigade.  As does another 100 miles / 160 km of distance.  Depending upon circumstances moderators might require additional logistical support.  Cost $0.1 and 0.0 BP
   3.5   Gendarmerie or Constabulary "Security", is a specially trained but lightly armed unit to maintain order over a hostile civilian population.  One Constabulary Brigade can keep order over 500,000 civilians.  Depending upon circumstances moderators might require additional Constabulary Brigades to keep order.  Cost $0.2 and 0.04 BP
   3.6   Artillery Anti Aircraft (AA), High Angle and High velocity artillery designed to engage aircraft.  An AA brigade would also include spotters, range finders and other specialist equipment to allow the guns to engage high flying and fast moving aircraft.  Note an AA brigade can function as an AT brigade at need but while doing so it can't engage enemy aircraft.  Cost see chart. 
   3.7   Artillery Anti Tank (AT), High velocity artillery designed to destroy enemy tanks.  Provides stated value vs. armored attack only and none vs. infantry attack.  Cost see chart.
   3.8   Special Weapons, a collection of machineguns, grenades, mortars, flame throwers, infantry guns, etc. intended to increase the firepower of a Division or Corps.  A special weapons brigade is not intended to fight by itself as while it has a great deal of firepower lacks manpower to employ it properly in the attack or defense.  Cost see chart.

4.0   Creating non standard corps or division
   4.1   Each Division contains 5 brigades and each Corps contains 10 brigades.
   4.2   A player can spend $1 to buy an empty Corps or two Divisions. Said empty units or shells will contain all control and logistics units required for the brigades to work together in the larger organization.
   4.3   To create a non standard high formation simply slot in the required number of brigades and apply the synergy bonus; see 5.0.
   4.4   A standard corps is made up of eight brigades of infantry and two brigades of artillery or pack artillery.  A standard division is made up of four brigades of infantry and one brigade of artillery or pack artillery.
   4.5   Upkeep is based upon the cost of individual brigades and not the $1 or $0.5 cost to create the Corps or Division shell.   

5.0   Synergy Bonus
   5.1   Corps, brigades (a maximum of ten) combined in a corps have a synergy bonus of 25%.  Note the base ratings for corps already have this bonus included.  The bonus is only for calculating the value of nonstandard corps.
   5.2   Division, brigades (a maximum of five) combined in a division have a synergy bonus of 10%.
   5.3   Brigades, brigades have no synergy bonus for working together unless combined within a division or corps level formation.

6.0   Motorization
   6.1   Basic Motorization available after 1910 allows increased tactical mobility of units.  Cost is $1 and 0.5 BP per Corps or $0.1 or 0.05 BP per Brigade.  Unit upkeep would increase by $0.1/$0.05/$0.01 per Corps or $0.01/$0.005/$0.001 per Brigade.
   6.2   Basic Motorization available after 1920 allows increased strategic mobility of units.  Cost is $2 and 1 BP per Corps or $0.2 or 0.1 BP per Brigade.  Unit upkeep would increase by $0.2/$0.1/$0.02 per Corps or $0.02/$0.01/$0.02 per Brigade.

 
Will post something on tanks later...

[Walter]

The idea I always played with was that if I wanted something special added to my Corps, I would create a few brigades of that and "attach" them to that Corps. They would be separate on the list for the calculations of upkeep, but in general they would always be where the Corps would be and go where the Corps would go.

When you work on Brigade level with the budget, you'd probably be using 40x Brigade X, 40x Brigade Y and 20x Brigade Z instead of listing each one of the 100 individually.

[KWorld]

Something along these lines would certainly be nice, especially for armies that don't use the ridiculously huge WWI US square divisions (which very few armies used).

It would almost be better, to my eyes, if we multiplied the current corps combat ratings by 10 or more so we could get down to the more usual unit of colonial wars, the regiment (2-3 to a brigade, depending on organization).  Sure, when main armies are clashing along the Rhine or in the polders, regiments will be serving with their parent units, but out in the colonies (especially after the initial campaign), colonial fights rarely were all that large (that's not to say some weren't, there were several substantial campaigns in east Africa in this period, for instance).


As the mod, it doesn't bother me if different people have different unit organizations, as long as I can 1) find their costs and see that they're being done correctly, and 2) I can see their combat values and they're being done correctly.  I've played enough different wargames with units of varying strength that this doesn't bother me a bit (1 game I can think of had units that varied from battalions all the way up to army groups, with a varying technical level scale as well).  If we come up with something that allows the grognards to build their "perfect army" and allows the non-grogs to build an army easily, and both are using the same rules so no one's getting hosed because the other guy's using the advanced rules and they're not, I'm good with it.

[Darman]

under the existing rules I was doing what Walter said, I was augmenting my corps using brigades.  But the Dutch have at most 200,000 men under arms at the beginning of WW1, half in fortifications.  Thats 36 citadels worth of men but only 2 army corps.  Even splitting into divisions (1/2 corps) so I had 3 divisions and 5 brigades to play around with doesn't give me the flexibility I'd desire. 

As for budgetting, what you would do is add a new column that says "Type", so for example my I Corps is an 1870 Type A (Type A meaning standard).  In my encyclopedia under my army section it will explain that Type A army corps have 8 infantry and 2 field artillery regiments.  My II Corps will be an 1870 Type B, which is a modified infantry corps with 7 infantry brigades, 1 cavalry brigade, and 2 artillery brigades.  Then my Colonial Landing Force will be 2 independent brigades, rather than an organic unit. 

[Walter]

Well the "Nieuwe Hollandse Waterlinie" consisted of 46 forts and 5 fortified cities. The fortified cities should be simmed as multiple citadels, so you're looking at something like +60 citadels for that defense line (if you want to do it right). :)

From reading, I think that the above number of forts is the total number of forts in the defense line. Stuff was added after it was completed so I'm not sure what the initial 1870 count would be of the number of forts without looking further into it.

[Darman]

Well the "Nieuwe Hollandse Waterlinie" consisted of 46 forts and 5 fortified cities. The fortified cities should be simmed as multiple citadels, so you're looking at something like +60 citadels for that defense line (if you want to do it right). :)

From reading, I think that the above number of forts is the total number of forts in the defense line. Stuff was added after it was completed so I'm not sure what the initial 1870 count would be of the number of forts without looking further into it.

I know there were more forts, I was running with the manpower numbers.  Keep in mind, some of these "forts" they mention will have 1,000 man garrisons or less. 

[Walter]

In your case, we'd need to add "3 forts = 1 citadel". :)

[Walter]

Looking at the Army stuff again, what level will we use? (also applies to other techs)

If we do it correctly (and using the above figures as example), we can only get the 1800 units. If we apply what we did in the last attempt, we'd be able to use 1870 units.

[KWorld]

In general, I'd say all 1870 techs would be available at start.


As far as armies go, I'm working on a regimental "building block" set-up for armies, but I'm not quite done with it yet.

[Walter]

For test calculatiosn, I used the above army stuff for the moment so I will mess around with it some more until you have the definitive stuff to play with.

[KWorld]

Heh, I'm not saying the regimental stuff's definitive, I'd like to see what people think of it first.  ;)


Conceptually, though, it allows you to build an army from regiments, where the above system allows you to build it from brigades.  Brigades, though, are a relatively unusual beast in this period, armies might or might not even have them as actual units (the US didn't after the end of the Civil War, for instance).  Most everyone had regiments, though, and I don't want to go down any lower for a sim like this.

[Walter]

We can't think of it if we don't see it. ;D

[KWorld]

Heh, fair enough.  What I have at the moment is strictly a spreadsheet, but it may show where I'm going (or hoping to go).

[Walter]

For what you have right now, looks promising to me.

Something I noticed with the other figures as well, considering its value, should the pack artillery not be a bit cheaper compared to the regular artillery? Or is there something to it that I don't know?

[KWorld]

For what you have right now, looks promising to me.

Something I noticed with the other figures as well, considering its value, should the pack artillery not be a bit cheaper compared to the regular artillery? Or is there something to it that I don't know?

Pack artillery's only reason for existence is that it's lighter in weight (and in the case of true mountain artillery, breaks down into loads that can go on a single mule) than regular artillery..  This is why it's both relatively expensive and less capable than regular artillery.