Transport

[KWorld]

Another subject for discussion:

Transport.  At this time period, overseas transport for armies was sometimes on warships (current or older), but the troops also moved by leased or hired civillian shipping.  Do we want to deal with that, or do we want to make the sim-rule that all troop transport will take place in government-owned and operated hulls?

[Darman]

actually... I was going to put forward an option that maybe we pay for our merchant fleets.  Our fleets would obviously not be as big as OTL but when we establish a colony there is a trade route established between colony and homeland who's income can only be accessed through merchant vessels plying said trade route.  1) it makes commerce raiding and protection actually mean something, with established trade routes (you can't re-route shipping, you have to take your chances and fight through) and 2) wars will have costs when we withdraw shipping from trade routes to transport troops. 

[Darman]

Oh, and we would be paying either 1/4 BP or maybe no BP and only cash for merchant vessels.  Designs can be swapped between countries at no cost for those who don't want to design freighters. 

[KWorld]

Myself, I'd be OK with a system where we at least have to define our trade routes and have some idea what sort of ships sail them.  I could see a system where, to get value out of your colonies, you have to have the freighters to carry the goods that comprise that value.

But definitely we should have some "generic" designs that anyone can use, so those who don't want to deal with designing freighters don't have to do so.

[KWorld]

A sail-driven cargo barque.  She does have a steam engine, to handle cruising when the wind is wrong, but she's intended primarily to be a sailing ship.

Claudia, USA Cargo Barque laid down 1870
Corvette (Unarmoured)

Displacement:
   3,343 t light; 3,413 t standard; 3,506 t normal; 3,580 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (275.00 ft / 275.00 ft) x 50.00 ft x (15.00 / 15.27 ft)
   (83.82 m / 83.82 m) x 15.24 m  x (4.57 / 4.65 m)

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 284 ihp / 212 Kw = 7.00 kts
   Range 1,000nm at 7.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 167 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   227 - 296

Cost:
   £0.127 million / $0.507 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 70 tons, 2.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,099 tons, 31.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 163 tons, 4.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 2,175 tons, 62.0 %
      - Hull below water: 1,200 tons
      - Hull above water: 600 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 200 tons
      - Above deck: 175 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     4,187 lbs / 1,899 Kg = 12.0 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.41
   Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 11.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 93 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.86

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.595 / 0.597
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16.58 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 14 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  13.00 ft / 3.96 m,  11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  11.00 ft / 3.35 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Average freeboard:      10.51 ft / 3.20 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 63.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 84.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 9,783 Square feet or 909 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 151 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 80 lbs/sq ft or 391 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.60
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, rides out heavy weather easily

Above-decks miscellaneous weight is masts and sails sufficient to propel the ship at up to 7 knots in normal conditions (5% of normal displacement).

[KWorld]

So, if we were going to have to ship home materials from the colonies to get the value out of them, how many tons per $ should be required?  In general, of course, at this time period it's not gold, silver, or gemstones flowing back, it's raw rubber, coffee, and other commodities.

[Darman]

So, if we were going to have to ship home materials from the colonies to get the value out of them, how many tons per $ should be required?  In general, of course, at this time period it's not gold, silver, or gemstones flowing back, it's raw rubber, coffee, and other commodities.

I'm not sure the value yet.  But in 1872 there were 2.6 tons of cross-border trade per capita in the Netherlands (population: 3.5 millions/9.1 million tons total).  By 1899 the population is 5 millions and cross border trade is at 8.3 tons per capita (41.5 million tons total). 
For overseas trade (cross-border trade includes trade with Germany etc overland), Dutch harbors handled 7.4 million tons of cargo in 1867, rising to 37.9 million tons of cargo by 1910. 
What the value of these cargoes is, I haven't a clue. 

[KWorld]

Given that prices were a lot lower then (and for this to be meaningful), it will probably end up being something fairly substantial, otherwise we end up with something where a years production fits into the hold of a small ship.  If it goes at $100 (100 dollars, not $1M like we usually use) per ton, a $4M colony needs 40,000 tons of cargo holds to carry it's output.  That's 20 cargo barques like I previously posted.

[Darman]

Given that prices were a lot lower then (and for this to be meaningful), it will probably end up being something fairly substantial, otherwise we end up with something where a years production fits into the hold of a small ship.  If it goes at $100 (100 dollars, not $1M like we usually use) per ton, a $4M colony needs 40,000 tons of cargo holds to carry it's output.  That's 20 cargo barques like I previously posted.

that assumes each vessel only makes one voyage each year

[KWorld]

Given that prices were a lot lower then (and for this to be meaningful), it will probably end up being something fairly substantial, otherwise we end up with something where a years production fits into the hold of a small ship.  If it goes at $100 (100 dollars, not $1M like we usually use) per ton, a $4M colony needs 40,000 tons of cargo holds to carry it's output.  That's 20 cargo barques like I previously posted.

that assumes each vessel only makes one voyage each year

I was actually assuming that the vessels would be tied to that run, moving goods back and forth.  But that breaks down when you look at close vs distant colonies: the Algiers to Marseilles run is a LOT shorter than the London to Bangalore run, let alone London to Sydney.

[Darman]

i'm sorry for short responses, i spilled milk on my laptop and because of a few messed up keys i need to type using the onscreen keypad. total pain.

make each route need X amount of cargo carrying capacity every year. whether players decide to meet those requrements with large slow ships or fast ships is up to them.

[KWorld]

i'm sorry for short responses, i spilled milk on my laptop and because of a few messed up keys i need to type using the onscreen keypad. total pain.

make each route need X amount of cargo carrying capacity every year. whether players decide to meet those requrements with large slow ships or fast ships is up to them.

Yeah, that's how we want it to be.  Hmmm.


Another example: London to Bombay is approximately 4500 miles by ship.  Assuming a constant speed of 7 knots (normal cruise speed for an individual merchant at this time), that can be covered in: (4500/7/24) = 27 days.  If the Raj is providing $36M to the British treasury per year, and $100 can fit in a ton of cargo hold, then you need at least 60,000 tons of cargo capacity working that run for the whole year (36000000 / 100 / 6) to extract full value from it, and the reverse runs can carry up to $36M in maintenance for the British administration and garrison.  So you could manage it with 30 cargo barques.  That seems kind of low, to me.  Going to $50 a ton, that drives up the requirement to 120,000 tons of cargo holds.

[Logi]

How about doing this to simplify the merchant marine problem.

The merchant marine all consist of 2 different ships, S and L, which represent small and large merchant ships respectively.

The S ships are 2000 Tons (500 NRT) ships running at 20.83 kts. (~500 nm per day)
The L ships are 8000 Tons (5000 NRT) ships running at 8.3 kts. (~200 nm per day)

The S ship is modeled after clippers of the period. The L ship is modeled after the windjammers of the period. The ship speeds are based on the period speeds rounded up so that the total distance traveled per day comes out to a nice number.

... By 1899 the population is 5 millions and cross border trade is at 8.3 tons per capita (41.5 million tons total). 
For overseas trade (cross-border trade includes trade with Germany etc overland), Dutch harbors handled ... 37.9 million tons of cargo [in] 1910. 

The Dutch Merchant Marine (Pg 530-531) consisted of 212 steamers weighting a total of 268,205 tons and 425 sailing vessels weighting a total of 78,577 tons. This means a total merchant marine tonnage of 346,782 tons.
According to this, the value of Dutch trade in 1900 is 784 million US dollars in imports and 681 million US dollars in exports in 1953 US dollars.

The Dutch GNP in 1900 as estimated by Bairoch was 3,164 million 1960 US dollars. This means a total GNP of 2857.99 million 1953 US dollars. I will use this value as reference for the trade value in terms of Navalism dollars. From the last startup attempt, the revenue of Netherlands was considered 140 million. This translates the total trade value to be 71.76 million Navalism US dollars.

Given these values and assuming a 4000 nm average trip for all the merchant ships in the Netherlands (to equalize the trade between neighboring countries by sea and the DEI) as well as a 8.3 average speed (200 nm per day). That means a total of 6,935,640 movement per trip. Each trip takes 20 days and if we assume the rest of that month and the next is downtime after the trip, the total movement is 41,613,840 tons per year. If we compare that to Darman's value of 37.9 million tons of cargo in 1910, we get an efficiency rating of ~91.08%.

So the total trade value is $71.76 mil vs a total trade tonnage of 41.5 mil overland (100% efficiency) and 37.9 mil (91.1% efficiency, aka 41.6).
That implies a price per ton of roughly $0.86(34) per ton Note this refers to the 100% efficient cross-borders ton

That means the S ship would be worth $393.19 per 4000nm trip. (NRT X Price per Ton X Efficiency)
This translates into the S ship being worth $7,077.42 per year (18 trips a year), or $0.007 navalism dollars.
If you have 500 such ships (0.25 mil tons), the net worth per year is $3.54.

The L ship is worth $3,931.92 per 4000nm trip and $23,591.54 per year (6 trips a year), or $0.024 navalism dollars.
If you have 500 such ships (2.5 mil tons), the net worth per year is $12. The relative efficiency of this ship to the S ship is $0.07 (S) to $0.024 (L), (i.e. 10 S ships each worth $0.007 carries the same tonnage for more profit than a L ship).

As balance, the smaller and faster ship should cost more than the large ships to purchase or build. If we go by the 1/4 merchant rules, this would mean 5 BP's worth of S type ships to carry the same tonnage as 2 BP's worth of L type ships, meaning you get get $0.12/BP with L ships vs $0.007/BP with S ships. The profitability is strongly in favor of the L ships, which are slower. From a simming stand-point this would encourage players not to specifically pursue merchant-military conversions, since the most profitable merchant is also unbearably slow compared to the much less profitable ship.



To sum it up, nations can run with either S or L ships, which are worth $0.007 & 0.5 BP and $0.024 & 2 BP respectively.

[KWorld]

Logi,

I think you've vastly overrated the average speed capability of the clippers.  While they could exceed 20 knots on occasion, it was a rare thing, and certainly couldn't be kept up for a long voyage.  During the Great Tea Race of 1866, for instance, the fastest day for any of the ships was 328 nautical miles for Fiery Cross.  Going faster requires wind from the right direction, and at the right speed, and one thing the captains could not control was the wind.

The speed average of 7 knots that I mentioned for sailing vessels is what I've found as a reasonable average for the period, sure, some trips will be faster, but some will be slower.

Your sizes are also rather large for the period.

[Logi]

The speed and sizes are only loosely attached to actual historic speeds and sizes.

Your sizes are also rather large for the period.

The S ships are period size, but the L ships would be 4000-5000 tons with 1500-2500 NRT. 1500 is a number that doesn't multiple well (it's not easily workable into 1000s). Hence, I arbitrarily increased the tonnage of the L ships to make bean-counting easier. Rest assured, I do know the actual historic numbers, I am simply balancing realism with ease of use.

I think you've vastly overrated the average speed capability of the clippers.  While they could exceed 20 knots on occasion, it was a rare thing, and certainly couldn't be kept up for a long voyage.  During the Great Tea Race of 1866, for instance, the fastest day for any of the ships was 328 nautical miles for Fiery Cross.  Going faster requires wind from the right direction, and at the right speed, and one thing the captains could not control was the wind.

The speeds were originally 14 kts for the clippers, but:
1) It doesn't work out to a nice number (336 nm doesn't work well into 1000 nm)
2) It doesn't work well in military-civilian conversions

Given the much lower efficiency ($ per BP) of S type ships, I imagine the greatest use for them is conversion into military use. 14-13 knots is a bit low as a result (I expect the number here to stay constant throughout our entire play, even past 1870) so I boosted the speed ahistorcially to balance the attractiveness of the S type ships.
If I went with the historical speeds for clippers, I am worried no one would buy them, given the profitability factor is close to or over 20 times in favor of the L type ships.

Also, numbers that don't work easily into multiples of 1000 make calculations in general much more difficult, something I'm not particularly fond of.