Various Thoughts and Ideas

[Nobody]

I almost always have some kind of new(?) and "brilliant" idea, which I believe could make the game much better. Usually I just forget about them and we never find out whether they were actually good or just too complicated. Anyway I think it would be a good idea to post these thoughts so others can judge and - potentially - use them.

To keep the flow I would prefer it you ask questions directly so I can clarify what I wrote. If you have your own ideas and don't know were else to post them or if you want to comment on ideas posted here, please go ahead.

[Nobody]

First thoughts are about slips and docks.

In the past we discussed if we actually needed them at all, but I believe that they are and should be an essential part of a naval game. One for which you have to plan ahead and maybe fight a war over.

So far we have only a few different types (0 to V). Everyone knows them easy to track them - all is fine. Or is it?
The disadvantage is that we all tend to build ships that just fit into them. We don't build a 130 meter ship because if we shave off a few meters it would fit into a type I. And we rarely build a 150 meter ship, because we might be able to improve it by making it longer and it would still fit in a type II. For similar reasons we often build rater brought ships with very hight drafts (but that is a different matter).

The obvious solution would be to give up on the fixed types and instead build them in the dimension we want. Simply charge for length times with and be done with it. However, I don't want to be the one who has to track that.

My solution would consist of several elements:
1) "outsourcing". Meaning one can build ships he has no (free) slip for by outsourcing the build to a private yard for a hefty premium (e.g. pay +50% or double). Good for big one-offs and a nice reference for foreign builds.
2) More tightly spaced yard sizes. First I was thinking of 10m but 15 seems more manageable.
3) other elements to limit fleet sizes (upkeep costs BP, upkeep for slips and docks)
4) improve strategic value of yard-cities. Concentration instead of dispersion. No limit on slip number per harbor. Benefits for concentration.
5) allow multiple constructions per slip/dock if there is at least half a ship of space in between. (e.g. a 250m dock could be used for 2 (or 4 if they are narrow enough) 100 m ships at the same time.)

Cost and Dimensions
It does not matter if the cost is $, BP, IC or something else. However, the cost of slips and docks should be proportional to their size. In reference to their length that means an increase between the power of 2 and 3 at least. That is because a crane that has the same can lift the same over a greater distance has to be build substantially sturdier. For my example I choose 2 and a half.
Aside from the length, I believe it is reasonable to limit the width as well. There should be wide (+50%) slips/docks available at twice the cost.
To prevent ugly numbers I rounded and "normed" them so the smaller ones cost the same as they do now.

				Price
Type	Length [m]	Width [m]		upgrade	total		Length [feet]	Width [feet]
0	50	15,4			2		164	50,5
I	65	18,6		2	4		213,3	60,9
II	80	21,3		2	6		262,5	70
III	95	23,8		3	9		311,7	77,9
IV	110	25,9		4	13		360,9	84,9
V	125	27,8		5	18		410,1	91,1
VI	140	29,5		6	24		459,3	96,7
VII	155	31		7	31		508,5	101,7
VIII	170	32,4		8	39		557,7	106,2
IX	185	33,6		9	48		607	110,4
X	200	34,8		11	59		656,2	114,1
XI	215	35,8		12	71		705,4	117,6
XII	230	36,8		13	84		754,6	120,7
XIII	245	37,7		14	98		803,8	123,7
XIV	260	38,5		16	114		853	126,4
XV	275	39,3		17	131		902,2	128,9
XVI	290	40		19	150		951,4	131,2
XVII	305	40,7		20	170		1000,7	133,4
XVIII	320	41,3		22	192		1049,9	135,5
XIX	335	41,9		23	215		1099,1	137,4
XX	350	42,4		25	240		1148,3	139,2
XXI	365	42,9		27	267		1197,5	140,9
XXII	380	43,4		28	295		1246,7	142,5

I don't think a slip or dock in every harbor is very realistic. Sure you want to be able to service your ships everywhere, but no. That's just not plausible. So how could concentration (to the few main shipbuilding harbors) work? How about a discount system? For every slip/dock of the same type the new one gets e.g. 10% cheaper (so if you have 2 type V slips in that harbor already the new one costs you only 14.58 instead of 18). This could be either build cost or upkeep.
If there is upkeep for the yards I would make it proportional to their length.

As always this has revealed some new problems and leads to other ideas. But enough for now.

[Jefgte]

Why not...

Much differences with WW dimensions.
Costs are perhaps too high.

Jef

[KWorld]

Myself, I'd have chosen 25m breaks.

Upkeep for slips & docks would be a good idea, though until we get rules for civillian slips & docks (to differentiate between them and government owned & operated slips & docks) this might be deferred.  With civilian slips & docks, a new military order might have to wait until a previously ordered civilian vessel has been completed enough to free up the slip or dock.

[Jefgte]

Increase by 25m simplify calculations & Qty of slipways & shipyards is correct - 12.
25-50-75-100-125-150-175-200-225-250-275-300

I appreciate the dif with the old worn Navalism numbers

Jef

[Nobody]

As I said my original idea were 10 meter steps so that type times 10 gives the length. However, small slips and docks are pretty pointless - which is why I start at 50. And no real reason for nice factors like e.g. 20 which I think is already too big.

Price is just an example. But I think it came out very nicely with small increasing steps. And the cost of the large ones is supposed to explode. ^^

@Jef, sorry but I don't think I understand what you want to say.

[Jefgte]

@Jef, sorry but I don't think I understand what you want to say.

Old shipyards were:
70m-120m-170m-220m...

Myself, I'd have chosen 25m breaks

New KW Shipyards are:
25m-50m-75m-100m-125m-150m...

I like new KW's dimensions.

Jef

[KWorld]

@Jef, sorry but I don't think I understand what you want to say.

Old shipyards were:
70m-120m-170m-220m...

Myself, I'd have chosen 25m breaks

New KW Shipyards are:
25m-50m-75m-100m-125m-150m...

I like new KW's dimensions.

Jef

I'd probably make the smallest slip/dock 50m, 25m is too short to be very useful I'd think (even 50m is awfully short for anything larger than a harbor boat).

[Jefgte]

I'd probably make the smallest slip/dock 50m, 25m is too short to be very useful I'd think (even 50m is awfully short for anything larger than a harbor boat).

I agree, 25m dock & slip are not useful.

Jef

[Nobody]

By the way:
All prices or values I mention are and were only examples, which need to be scaled, so their relation to the economic system is reasonable

Harbors/Ports
Having several types or sizes of harbors, which come with different benefits and limitations, is I believe essential. However the types of harbors we had were usually too small or too big. And the severely limited number of of slips and docks per harbor makes recreating a harbor like Hamburg rather difficult. Anyway the effect is (was), that we had a large number of ports each with a couple of slips and docks.

Of course that is strategically nice, not having to worry about your shipbuilding industry in one place, instead having it dispersed. For realistic reasons and because it allows more role-playing I would
- separate upkeep from the slip/dock limit
- increase or abandon the slip/dock limitations
- add a draft limit to harbors and/or certain areas on sea

Would I set up a list of port sizes, it might look like this:

	support [t]	build cost	upkeep cost
0	5000	3	1
I	12000	8	2
II	25000	18	3
III	40000	30	4
IV	75000	59	7
V	120000	99	9
VI	200000	174	13
VII	300000	271	18
VIII	400000	372	21
IX	550000	528	27
X	800000	797	35
XI	1000000	1019	41

Explanation:
As support capacity increases, more heavier equipment is needed. That is why the construction cost increases slightly faster than support capacity. On the other hand, the same big equipment ensures that it can work more efficient, which is why upkeep increases a bit slower than support.

[Nobody]

Floating Drydocks
Floating Drydocks are essentially U-shaped pontoons. So, why don't we build them like ships with a 1.0 block coefficient?

First I wanted to have them build to 2.0 composite, but that makes them ludicrously expansive and big.
Length. They have open ends, so ships could be longer than the drydock. My idea: max length +10%
Width. They have walls (remember U-shape), so their usable width is smaller. My idea: max width 80% of the total width. (In other words the dock has to be 25% - or one quarter - wider than your ship.)
Draft. The sides of the dock need to remain surfaced when you dock a ship, so they need to be higher than the draft of you ship. My idea: max draft 80% of freeboard height.

Example: Kaiserdock, German Dock laid down 1910

Displacement:
   66.196 t light; 67.554 t standard; 67.894 t normal; 68.165 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (754,59 ft / 754,59 ft) x 150,92 ft x (20,87 / 20,95 ft)
   (230,00 m / 230,00 m) x 46,00 m  x (6,36 / 6,39 m)

Machinery:
   Immobile floating battery

Complement:
   2.102 - 2.733

Cost:
   £2,317 million / $9,267 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 0 tons, 0,0%
   Machinery: 0 tons, 0,0%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 21.196 tons, 31,2%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.697 tons, 2,5%
   Miscellaneous weights: 45.000 tons, 66,3%
      - Hull above water: 36.000 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 9.000 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     206.065 lbs / 93.470 Kg = 1.908,0 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 9,7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,44
   Metacentric height 17,5 ft / 5,3 m
   Roll period: 15,2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,00
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2,00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low forecastle, low quarterdeck ,
     a normal bow and a round stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 1,000 / 1,000
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 27,47 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 0 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   5,00%,  6,56 ft / 2,00 m,  6,56 ft / 2,00 m
      - Forward deck:   45,00%,  41,01 ft / 12,50 m,  41,01 ft / 12,50 m
      - Aft deck:   45,00%,  41,01 ft / 12,50 m,  41,01 ft / 12,50 m
      - Quarter deck:   5,00%,  6,56 ft / 2,00 m,  6,56 ft / 2,00 m
      - Average freeboard:      37,57 ft / 11,45 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 58,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 423,2%
   Waterplane Area: 113.882 Square feet or 10.580 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 151%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 153 lbs/sq ft or 745 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,95
      - Longitudinal: 1,59
      - Overall: 1,00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, rides out heavy weather easily

45000 t floting drydock, maximum dimensions:
Length: 253 m
Width: 36,8 m
Draft: 10 m
The cost for this would be around 68.2$ and 21.2 BP.

[KWorld]

Wouldn't the cost be $16.549 and $16.549 BP, since I'm not seeing much of any military equipment here?

[Nobody]

Wouldn't the cost be $16.549 and $16.549 BP, since I'm not seeing much of any military equipment here?

But a drydock is not a civilian ship. I didn't explicitly write that, but as you can see in my example I would like to charge for the material and the maximum size of the dock. With that the prices fall nicely in the rage of my suggested slip/dock costs.

[KWorld]

Wouldn't the cost be $16.549 and $16.549 BP, since I'm not seeing much of any military equipment here?

But a drydock is not a civilian ship. I didn't explicitly write that, but as you can see in my example I would like to charge for the material and the maximum size of the dock. With that the prices fall nicely in the rage of my suggested slip/dock costs.

Isn't it?  There's nothing explicitly military about it, while the drydock could be used to repair or refit military vessels, it could just as easily be used to do the same thing to civilian shipping. 

Of course, as of now, I don't see any explicit signs of cranes, storage, power, etc, so it's kind of lacking the things needed to actually work on a ship.  It can raise the ship to be worked on out of the water, but it needs a couple of crane ships and other support units to help complete the task.

[KWorld]

A possible set of sizes and costs for slips & drydocks.

Slips & Drydocks
Class	Length		Slip BP	Slip $		Drydock BP	Drydock $	Maintenance
A	50m		1	3		2	5	2
B	75m		1.5	4.5		3	7.5	3
C	100m		2	6		4	10	4
D	125m		2.5	7.5		5	12.5	5
E	150m		3	9		6	15	6
F	175m		3.5	10.5		7	17.5	7
G	200m		4	12		8	20	8
H	225m		4.5	13.5		9	22.5	9
I	250m		5	15		10	25	10
J	275m		5.5	17.5		11	27.5	11
K	300m		6	18		12	30	12
L	325m		6.5	19.5		13	32.5	13
M	350m		7	21		14	35	14
N	375m		7.5	22.5		15	37.5	15
Q	400m		8	24		16	40	16