Colonies

[KWorld]

[Some thoughts, comments?]


Colonies

At the turn of the century, the great nations of the world cast an acquisitive eye out at the rest of the world.  While Europe and North America were populated by great nations, Africa, Asia, and possibly even South America were ripe for conquest and colonization (or re-colonization, in the case of South America).   The British Empire, with it's Dominions in Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, and (most especially) it's colonies in Hong Kong, and British India, was the model that others aspired to.  British India, alone, was more profitable than the rest of the Empire combined.

But there was a secret that the government of British India tried to keep concealed: British India was restive.  Attempts to increase the productivity of India did not reduce the unrest, in general they seemed to increase it.  The educated classes strained against the limits imposed by the British Viceroy, and the working classes resented the taxes they paid to far-off London.

[Colonies: for the sim, let's define colonies as areas with an indigenous population ruled over by an imported elite:  ie, a colony in the sense of most 19th century colonies. ]
Colonies are prone to rebelling if the indigenous population feels abused, and as education rises (to work in industry, or to provide local administrators, etc), it is easier for the indigenous population to feel that it is being taken advantage of.  Also, should such a state of perceived abuse continue for a time, groups that might not have perceived a group identity may become welded together by a common feeling of being abused, resulting in a feeling of a national identity.  Such a national identity, distinct from that of the colonial power, will increase the likelihood of a rebellion.

Chance of rebellion:
A colony may rebel if the number of IC and BP sited within the colony exceeds 50% of the population (where BP are counted as 20 IC).   This chance is reduced by the presence of troops. 

Types of rebellion:
A colony may rebel economically (via strikes, refusal to buy imported goods, etc), or militarily (a la the Sepoy Mutiny or the American Revolution).  An economic rebellion will reduce the output of the colony, while a military revolt will reduce the output of the colony along with posing the chance of the colony becoming free of the colonial power.]

[Darman]

My recommendation (as presumed UK-successor) is that everyone but the UK has no colonies in 1895.  By 1900 all the UK colonies have rebelled, some with more grievances against the Crown and some with less.  That way the UK can start with no colonies to her name, but prestige requires she at least make a token effort to retake her former colonies.  Australia, New Zealand and Canada are more interested in a Dominion/Commonwealth-relationship, with no direct rule from London, but paying homage (not taxes or tribute) to the King.  India, South Africa (Cape Colonies might be included with Australia, Canada, and NZ, but the Zulu territories, the Boer republics, etc,) want nothing to do with the Crown.  Thats not to say that all these former British colonies can't be taken over by someone else.  It just means that occupying them would involve a garrison. 

[KWorld]

My recommendation (as presumed UK-successor) is that everyone but the UK has no colonies in 1895.  By 1900 all the UK colonies have rebelled, some with more grievances against the Crown and some with less.  That way the UK can start with no colonies to her name, but prestige requires she at least make a token effort to retake her former colonies.  Australia, New Zealand and Canada are more interested in a Dominion/Commonwealth-relationship, with no direct rule from London, but paying homage (not taxes or tribute) to the King.  India, South Africa (Cape Colonies might be included with Australia, Canada, and NZ, but the Zulu territories, the Boer republics, etc,) want nothing to do with the Crown.  Thats not to say that all these former British colonies can't be taken over by someone else.  It just means that occupying them would involve a garrison.

That might be going a bit too far, if only because to get the same income without ANY overseas possessions would require an extreme amount of IC in the UK itself.

[Darman]

That might be going a bit too far, if only because to get the same income without ANY overseas possessions would require an extreme amount of IC in the UK itself.

Who said I wanted the same income?  Granted, as the UK, with an Empire I once had to protect, I'd like the "full" UK income for startup, after that though, bring the UK's income back down.  Then I'll build older-classed vessels, keeping in line with the UK's decline in power and prestige with the relatively rapid loss of its colonies.  Why?  Because it helps keep the UK in line with the other powers. 

Plus, the UK had 81BP at last start, so it would have a similar amount this time around, why? Because most of the heavy manufacturing will be in the UK proper, not its colonies.  Bringing the UK down to around 75BP but around $275 in income would also encourage exports while ensuring that the UK doesn't have a huge lead in BP.  But again, a big lead in the beginning would be nice (to keep with the storyline of the Empire's First and Only Fall) and I'd even drop the BP down to 70 if people really wanted me to.  The UK would have a Legacy Fleet to fit its profile as a Legacy Colonial Power.  When 1900 (i.e. Turn One) rolls around, the UK has no more colonies but, with "Commonwealth Allies" like Australia, New Zealand, Cape Town, and Canada, she has plenty of overseas obligations, but no income from those countries.  Make sense? 

[KWorld]

Here's what I was looking at for the UK (based on the previous set-up, where the UK controlled India, Hong Kong, and the Dominions):

United Kingdom	38.00	145	65.0	183.00
India	200.00	20	4.0	76.00
Canada	5.73	20	6.0	25.73
Australia	4.40	15	5.0	19.40
New Zealand	0.70	5	1.0	5.70
Hong Kong	0.33	5	0.0	5.33
				0.00
Total	249.155	210	81	315.16

As you can see, cutting out the colonies and Dominions would be painful.

[Darman]

Here's what I was looking at for the UK (based on the previous set-up, where the UK controlled India, Hong Kong, and the Dominions):

United Kingdom	38.00	145	65.0	183.00
India	200.00	20	4.0	76.00
Canada	5.73	20	6.0	25.73
Australia	4.40	15	5.0	19.40
New Zealand	0.70	5	1.0	5.70
Hong Kong	0.33	5	0.0	5.33
				0.00
Total	249.155	210	81	315.16

As you can see, cutting out the colonies and Dominions would be painful.

[bolded for brevity]
Yes it would be.  See, I want to level the playing field somewhat, so the UK doesn't have this MASSIVE fleet that no one wants to go up against.  But at the same time we need an empire in decline (and I'm kinda competitive so me overseeing said empire in decline would not work well for my psyche....).  But me overseeing an empire that has already declined, however, with a legacy navy (to defend my dominion "allies") , I can do.  If we went with an option that hurt my income significantly then I would prefer a 5 year pre-start plan so I could have the largest "old" navy out there.  Keep in mind, the older ships will become obsolete by about 1906. 

Also, I would prefer a return to a more simple form of upkeep.  None of this complicated range and speed etc formula upkeep.  Either use Light tonnage as the basis or Full tonnage. 

[KWorld]

Here's what I was looking at for the UK (based on the previous set-up, where the UK controlled India, Hong Kong, and the Dominions):

United Kingdom	38.00	145	65.0	183.00
India	200.00	20	4.0	76.00
Canada	5.73	20	6.0	25.73
Australia	4.40	15	5.0	19.40
New Zealand	0.70	5	1.0	5.70
Hong Kong	0.33	5	0.0	5.33
				0.00
Total	249.155	210	81	315.16

As you can see, cutting out the colonies and Dominions would be painful.

[bolded for brevity]
Yes it would be.  See, I want to level the playing field somewhat, so the UK doesn't have this MASSIVE fleet that no one wants to go up against.  But at the same time we need an empire in decline (and I'm kinda competitive so me overseeing said empire in decline would not work well for my psyche....).  But me overseeing an empire that has already declined, however, with a legacy navy (to defend my dominion "allies") , I can do.  If we went with an option that hurt my income significantly then I would prefer a 5 year pre-start plan so I could have the largest "old" navy out there.  Keep in mind, the older ships will become obsolete by about 1906. 

Also, I would prefer a return to a more simple form of upkeep.  None of this complicated range and speed etc formula upkeep.  Either use Light tonnage as the basis or Full tonnage.

Heh, if the UK lost all it's colonies and Dominions, it will be looking up at it's rivals, not down.  But if you want to try it, it's OK by me.

On maintenance, since we already have the spreadsheets from last time, with the speed & range maintenance built in, I'm not inclined to change that.

[KWorld]

Now, since part of the goal in the conquest of paradise will be to grab and hold colonies, we need to have some idea how that will work.  This isn't the 4.5 world, where you'd be planting your own population on an uninhabited island, after all.

In some cases, your desired colony (we'll use Brazil as an example) has been a colony before and wants no part of being a colony again.  These will be more difficult to colonize than other areas where (in this world) the region has never been colonized before.  Colonization would require ships and troops to start the process, and troops would be a good idea to keep a hold on it (from both the locals and other countries).

[Jefgte]

Some ideas ...

Colonization depend on local officials.
If it is a small kingdom with some tribal villages or "state" like China.
Arrivals of foreign are first peaceful for trade.
The presence of some troops lined up on landing will be just for the close protection of the negotiators.
1 - The reception is kind, there is possibility to install a trading post with troops protection and some warships.
2 - The reception is hostile, wounded and dead, in this case, embarkation or conquest by force.
2a
Military conquest if it is a small kingdom => IC cost => IC cost
Military conquest if it is a medium kingdom (Tunisia) => IC cost
2b
If not military conquest is a great kingdom (China).

This is a kind of Monopoly  ;D  ;D  ;D

Jef  ;)

[Jefgte]

Built a list of the kingdoms with locations, IC values, from the smaller to the taller & the IC conquest cost.

Jef  ;)

[KWorld]

I'm thinking it's more based around population than IC.  But it will certainly be easier if the area hasn't developed a national identity: for example, conquering India was possible for Great Britain in the 18th and 19th centuries because to the populace, one overlord was much the same as another, while France failed in it's attempt to install a new monarchy in Mexico in the 19th Century because the populace rejected it.

> 2a
> Military conquest if it is a small kingdom => IC cost => IC cost
> Military conquest if it is a medium kingdom (Tunisia) => IC cost

I don't understand what you're trying to say here?

[Jefgte]

> 2a
> Military conquest if it is a small kingdom => IC cost => IC cost
> Military conquest if it is a medium kingdom (Tunisia) => IC cost

IC cost is different for

a little colony with 10.000 peoples like Djibouti  ($0.2 )
a bigger one, Sultana of Tanger with 200.000 peoples ($4.00)

(Numbers are exemples)

Germany could buy  Tsintao to China, 300.000 peoples, for $3.00

Jef

[Darman]

I'm currently on vacation but popped on to check out whats going on.

I had an idea, we're so set on using OTL situation but what if we went back to when the Spanish Empire was at its height, but has an old, obsolete fleet (1880s tech), to defend an empire that is ripe for the picking by newer, technologically advanced maritime powers (Hanseatic League, Dutch, English, French, even Portugal), none of whom possess any colonies at start.  Pick apart Spain's colonies or find some of your own. 

I'll clarify on Friday when I return, just ask any questions, comments, concerns, etc now so I can prepare to answer them.  Thanks. 

[KWorld]

I'm currently on vacation but popped on to check out whats going on.

I had an idea, we're so set on using OTL situation but what if we went back to when the Spanish Empire was at its height, but has an old, obsolete fleet (1880s tech), to defend an empire that is ripe for the picking by newer, technologically advanced maritime powers (Hanseatic League, Dutch, English, French, even Portugal), none of whom possess any colonies at start.  Pick apart Spain's colonies or find some of your own. 

I'll clarify on Friday when I return, just ask any questions, comments, concerns, etc now so I can prepare to answer them.  Thanks.

We certainly could do something like this, if that's what be want to do.  It will just take some time and thought to make the idea work, and the mod will be busy for a while losing Spanish (or British, if we set it in 1900 using an expanded historical British Empire might be easier and more mentally plausible than a redated Spanish empire).

[Darman]

I'm currently on vacation but popped on to check out whats going on.

I had an idea, we're so set on using OTL situation but what if we went back to when the Spanish Empire was at its height, but has an old, obsolete fleet (1880s tech), to defend an empire that is ripe for the picking by newer, technologically advanced maritime powers (Hanseatic League, Dutch, English, French, even Portugal), none of whom possess any colonies at start.  Pick apart Spain's colonies or find some of your own. 

I'll clarify on Friday when I return, just ask any questions, comments, concerns, etc now so I can prepare to answer them.  Thanks.

We certainly could do something like this, if that's what be want to do.  It will just take some time and thought to make the idea work, and the mod will be busy for a while losing Spanish (or British, if we set it in 1900 using an expanded historical British Empire might be easier and more mentally plausible than a redated Spanish empire).

I just figured that it might work because every time we re-start we re-start with the same basic thing.  Doing something like this would allow us to not feel constrained by OTL history.