Annual turns

[Darman]

de-colonized map works for me

[Walter]

I don't see the reason why GB should be allowed to keep Gibraltar or why Spain should be allowed to keep the Azores. Gibraltar should be Spanish and the Azores should be unclaimed.

[Jefgte]

I don't see the reason why GB should be allowed to keep Gibraltar or why Spain should be allowed to keep the Azores. Gibraltar should be Spanish and the Azores should be unclaimed.

For me, that was the only point unpleasant in the map.

So, I agree with Walter.
Gibraltar could be to Spain.

Jef

[Walter]

You suggested 35 million for population so how are we going to handle populations? Darman mentioned plague to cut population, but I doubt a plague would increase a nation's population. The nations that have historical populations lower than the proposed 35 million would also be affected by a large scale plague.

So for those nations, are we going to add a few bits of land to bump up the population or just assume that 35 million people are in the homelands? Looking at the figures I posted earlier (based on those in Logi's post), England is not a problem. Ireland's 5 million were not included, so that would bump Britain's population up to 36 million. With Germany, you could add the Southern German bits to it to get it up to 36 million. Italy's going to be a little bit more problematic. Even if you were to agree to add Switzerland to Italy, it would bump the population up to just over 30 million. Adding bits of AH as per the map (instead of using the historical borders) and assuming that Nizza and Savoia were never handed over to France would probably still result in a population below 35 million.

... maybe I should apply some sinister magic and create a bunch of zombies and other undead creatures to boost the Italian population. :D

[KWorld]

Given other changes, I doubt that boosting populations is out of the bounds of reason, without resorting to magic or necromancy.

[Darman]

We don't need to add land to Italy to pretend that the Italians responded to the plague by procreating rather vigorously, thus offsetting any losses to the plague and ending up with a net gain. 

[Logi]

It's very doubtful procreating vigorously has any effect what-so-ever on population growth, given the constraints of the period. Regardless of the number of offspring you produce, disease, malnutrition, and limited household budgets are still going to make the effort of such policies virtually nonexistent.

[Darman]

It's very doubtful procreating vigorously has any effect what-so-ever on population growth, given the constraints of the period. Regardless of the number of offspring you produce, disease, malnutrition, and limited household budgets are still going to make the effort of such policies virtually nonexistent.

Fine then, you come up with the reason.  I understand you want a "realistic" sim.  I'm simply trying to come up with quasi-plausible explanations.  That is all we need.  We don't need historicaly true explanations. 

[Walter]

Without the plague, it could be quasi-plausible, but if you are applying a plague to cut down the populations of other nations, it no longer is. More people being born means more possible victims for the plague. A plague does not know any borders so it is going to affect the lower population nations as well as the higher population nations.

[Darman]

Without the plague, it could be quasi-plausible, but if you are applying a plague to cut down the populations of other nations, it no longer is. More people being born means more possible victims for the plague. A plague does not know any borders so it is going to affect the lower population nations as well as the higher population nations.

I'm not wedded to the idea of a plague.  I'm simply wedded to the reality that we need equal-population nations in order to proceed.  How we achieve that without adding territory to European nations?  That is open to interpretation.  The only reason the Dutch are getting colonies is because there is no way they have a large enough population to be even a third rate power on their own.  And in all honesty, I believe the Dutch will rather quickly be losing their colonies unless they can find a strong ally. 

[Walter]

Well, you suggested plague even if you don't like it, but despite that I doubt plague would work.

In case of the Netherlands, instead of the colonies, we could make Britain part of the Netherlands to solve that problem. After all, we conquered Britain back in 1688. It's something to be proud of as a Dutchman. :D

[Darman]

Well, you suggested plague even if you don't like it, but despite that I doubt plague would work.

Oh I know it was my idea.  I was grasping at straws and had recently read World War Z (still have to see the movie). 

In case of the Netherlands, instead of the colonies, we could make Britain part of the Netherlands to solve that problem. After all, we conquered Britain back in 1688. It's something to be proud of as a Dutchman. :D

This is true. 

[Logi]

I'm not actually opposed to the equal population start, I just desire a plausible reason. Plague as a reason is very doubtful.

I apologize for being too critical, so here is my suggestion. You may shoot it down similarly  ;)



I just shuffled the populations and territories of the European nations via migration (as limited as possible). We can say, pull the misc migrants from China if it makes anyone feel better.

Basically, Netherlands/Belgium/Luxembourg is combined and gains the northern territories from France that it held as Burgundy. That is, none of Rhineland provinces or Bourgogne + Franche-Comte. Since half of the state's population come from migrants (mostly British), the culture should be adjusted accordingly.

Italy annexes Switzerland and never loses Savoy/Nice to France. Italy gets Tirol and Slovenia, that is Tirol (currently owned by Italy IRL) and the little coastline below Austria proper, not including Croatia.

Austria receives Serbia and Bosnia/Herzegovina from the Ottoman Empire.



Great Britain
   England                  31,400
   Ireland                   5,419
   - Migrants            -1,819
   TOTAL                     35,000
   
France:
   France                           38,440
   - Nord-Pas-de-Calais      -1,861
   - Ardennes                       -380.3
   - Picardie                     -1,533
   - Seine-Maritime              -790
   - Alpes-Maritimes (Nice)  -199
   - Haute-Savoie                  -273
   - Savoie                           -268
   Misc. Migrants                1,864.3
   TOTAL                              35,000
   
Germany:
   Germany                  39,231
   - Migrants            -4,231
   TOTAL                     35,000
   
Netherlands:
   Netherlands                3,610
   Belgium                      5,096
   Luxembourg                  181
   
   English Migrants       1,819
   German Migrants          4,231
   US Migrants                5,241
   Would-be-Canadians    5,600
   Would-be-Australians 1,775
   Would-be-New Zealands    291
   
   Nord-Pas-de-Calais    1,861
   Ardennes                      380.3
   Picardie                   1,533
   Ardennes                      380.3
   Seine-Maritime             790
   
   Misc Migrants             2,591.7
   
   TOTAL                        35,000
   
Japan:
   Japan                     34,437
   Misc. Migrants         563
   
   TOTAL                     35,000
   
US:
   USA                        40,241
   - Migrants             5,241
   
   TOTAL                     35,000
   
Italy:
   Italy                              27,888
   
   Haute-Savoie                     273
   Savoie                              268
   Alpes-Maritimes (Nice)     199
   
   Switzerland                      2,655
   Tirol                                  236.4
   Slovenia                         1,182.2
   
   Misc. Migrants                2,298.4
   
   TOTAL                              35,000
   
Austria-Hungary:
   Austra                    4,520
   Hungary                    5,917
   Czechoslovakia      10,155
   Yugoslavia             8,252
   Romania                   9,179
   Keep Bosnia & Hez
   Keep Serbia
   Misc Migrants          2,784.6
   - Macedonia              -620
   - Romania Proper   -3,769
   - Tirol                    -236.4
   - Slovenia            -1,182.2
   TOTAL                     35,000
   
Ottoman Empire
   Turkey               11,793
   Syria                    1,582
   Iraq                    1,580
   Palestine                429
   Lebanon                 479
   Jordan                  266
   Egypt                   7,049
   Libya                     383
   Tunisia                1,176
   Albania                  603
   Bulgaria             2,586
   Macedonia               620
   Romania Proper    3,769

   Misc Migrants       2,685
   
   TOTAL                  35,000

   
TOTAL MISC MIGRANTS   12,787

[Jefgte]

  :o  :o  :o
That's a strange start - 35 millions pop for all...
IMO,
Minor diff could be accepted  - 30 to 35 millions.
Adjustements are possible with BPs or technical level -IPs

Jef  ;)

[KWorld]

Like I've said, given the capped costs and the breaking of relationships to population on IC, I don't know that absolutely equal populations are necessary.