Annual turns

[KWorld]

OK, KWorld's back and trying to catch up.  Give me an hour.....

[Work's been entirely too crazy the last two weeks, but I'm sneaking some time in anyway.]


As I've said before, I'm not in favor of a purely Europe-based start, because of terrain: a purely European start advantages France, Great Britain, Russia, and Spain, because they're the countries that have free access to the Atlantic (or can simply move east by land).  Prussia/Germany, the Netherlands, A-H, Italy, etc, are all trapped behind one or more of their neighbors to get out into the wider world.


On China: China, in purely GDP terms, was a major player at this time, but that alone did not make it a major player.  The lack of modern industry, lack of centralized organization, etc, all contributed to a country that was rich, but not a player on the world stage.  Conceptually, I was thinking of China, like Brazil, as a second-line nation: not a threat to the great powers, but not a complete push-over either.


On Darman's suggestion about colonies in a low-population world - I'd be OK with something like this, this is similar to the concept (minus the dangerous fauna) from the plans from a year and a half ago.

[Jefgte]

Happy to see you back aboard

:)  :)  :)

[KWorld]

Oh, one thing: since I wasn't here for N3, references to that sim don't really help me.

[Darman]

I'd be happy with the current set-up (minus existing colonies) as long as we went with a base population that is exactly the same for all countries at start-up (again, if we need a backstory then use a world-devastating plague that mutated worse in some areas than in others).  Having Japan, USA, and China doesn't bother me too much. 

[KWorld]

I'm OK with exactly equal populations for the first-line nations.  The second-line nations can vary, due to their different circumstances (Brazil, for example, won't have the population of China, but will be more industrialized and won't be as decentralized and corrupt).  I'm not sure how the Dutch are going to even make second-line status, though, without colonies, because even if we combine all three of the Benelux countries, we still only get 9 million at the time, and only 28 million now.


Now, what is the desired amount of $ and BP per year, and how many turns per year do we want?

[Walter]

Thinking about it, normally in a report, half of your revenue is civilian and half of it is military. Our startup funds are $1000 and 20 BP. Since all of the $1000 can be spend on military stuff, those $1000 are obviously military cash. That would mean an equal amount (an additional $1000) would have been produced alongsider the military cash for civilian purposes. For simplicity, we will assume that all that civilian cash was used for civilian purposes. Using the startup cost of $10 per IC and $100 per BP, a balance would be $500 on IC (= 50 IC) and $500 on BPs (=5BP). If you use your initial figure as baseline, adding those two values would give you $150 and 15BP per half year. Alternatively, it could be up to the player to buy the ICs and BPs from the civilian cash.

[KWorld]

That works out to a base start of $300 and 30 BP annually for first-line nations.  What's the group's thought on this?  Is it enough, too much, just right?

[Walter]

I quickly went through the reports to see what the startup settings were for each nation in those cases.

N3 At start (1906)
Nation ----------------- Pop ----- BP ---- IC ------ Rev -----
Middle Kingdom --------- 436 ---- 13.8 -- 111 ------ 287 -----
France ----------------- 107.5 -- 20 ---- 188.5 ---- 254.5 ---
Rohan ------------------- 72 ---- 16.7 -- 111 ------ 183 -----
United Norman Kingdom --- 52 ---- 17.5 -- 108 ------ 160 -----
Gran Colombia ----------- 44 ---- 15.2 -- 109.5 ---- 153.5 ---
Baltic Confederation ---- 62 ---- 14 ----- 97 ------ 152 -----
Republic of Orange ------ 48 ---- 13.2 --- 99 ------ 147 -----
Brandenburg ------------- 72 ---- 10.7 --- 72 ------ 144 -----
New Switzerland --------- ? ----- 11 ----- 99 ------ 143 -----
Russia ------------------ 90 ---- 10 ----- 66 ------ 136.8 ---
CSA --------------------- 34 ---- 14 ----- 96 ------ 130 -----
Habsburg ---------------- 55 ---- 10.6 --- 71 ------ 126 -----
Netherlands ------------- 74 ---- 11.5 --- 78 ------ 123.2 ---
Japan ------------------- 97 ----- 7 ----- 43 ------- 96.4 ---
Iberia ------------------ 54.5 --- 8 ----- 49 ------- 93.5 ---
Ukraine (1907) ---------- 50 ----- 6 ----- 43 ------- 92.8 ---
Italy ------------------- 39.7 --- 7 ----- 44.5 ----- 80.04 --
Bavaria (1908) ---------- 26.52 -- 7.25 -- 49 ------- 75.512 -
Ottoman Empire ---------- 36.5 --- 6 ----- 30 ------- 61.3 ---

Note that around 1908/1909 it was decided to increase the number of BP by about 50%.


N5 at start (1900)
Nation ----------------- Pop ----- BP ---- IC ------ Rev -----
United Kingdom -------- 265.731 -- 81 --- 197.5 --- 314.99 ---
Germany ---------------- 77.29 --- 68 --- 226 ----- 299.29 ---
United States ---------- 77.312 -- 65 --- 206 ----- 283.23 ---
France ----------------- 79.344 -- 60 --- 196 ----- 258.66 ---
Russia ---------------- 124 ------ 19 ---- 75 ----- 159.8 ----
Japan ------------------ 45.1 ---- 22 --- 105 ----- 150.1 ----
Italy ------------------ 43.4 ---- 23 ---- 99 ----- 142.4 ----
Netherlands ------------ 55 ------ 14 --- 112 ----- 140 ------
Habsburg --------------- 66 ------ 18 ---- 71 ----- 128.2 ----
Iberia ----------------- 44.282 -- 13.5 -- 89 ----- 128 ------
Ottoman Empire --------- 36.4 ---- 13.5 -- 54 ------ 90.4 ----
Chile ------------------- 3 ------- 2 ---- 72 ------ 75 ------
Brazil ----------------- 17 ------- 2 ---- 45 ------ 62 ------
Argentina --------------- 5.8 ----- 2 ---- 45 ------ 50.8 ----


Using a similar test run like I did before, using Germany and without the variables, you will have at the beginning of 1901 (with IC cost of $60 and BP cost of $240):
1 - 10 BP and $100 start: 112 IC, 14 BP, $139. Lower mid region N5, mid region N3.
2 - 15 BP and $150 start: 184 IC, 22 BP, $211. Upper mid region N5, lower high region N3.
3 - 20 BP and $200 start: 234 IC, 34 BP, $261. Lower hig region N5, upper high region N3.

For the first line nations, I would think that the 1st option is too low. The third option is probably too high since it is likely that you will use some leftover military cash as well and if you gain colonies, you could end up with something equal to N5's United Kingdom. Maybe the second option is a little bit more than we want, but 15/150 are nicer numbers than something like 13/130. Still, one should remember that this test run focusses on IC building while you'd probably mix it up a bit so you will end up with more BPs and less revenue (25/190 is you were to use half the cash for BPs and the other half for ICs).

Perhaps something like:
- First line nations: 15 BP and $150 start
- Second line nations: 10 BP and $100 start
- Third line nations : 5 BP and $50 start

... or use a smaller step (like 15/150, 12/120, 9/90)

[KWorld]

I wouldn't expect there to be a direct connection between IC costs and BP costs, so $240 per BP might be high.  Right now, the spreadsheets still have the N5 costs (100 + 5 * (number of BP)).  If we assume middle standard start conditions ($150 and 15 BP) and a population of 35 million, that means that new IC would cost $60 and new BP would cost $175.

[Walter]

The $240 cost was merely an example based on the costs of N3. In N3 the cost of an IC was $75 and the cost of a BP was 4 times as much ($300). So for simplicity with the testrun, I used the same multiplier to get to $240 for a BP.

Considering that from the start we all have the same number of BPs, using the N5 formula should not be a problem.

As for $240 being high, you should know that with the N5 formula, you'll be paying more than that for each BP after you have gained your 28th BP. I did post this idea for increased BP cost a few weeks ago:

BP 1 - $160
BP 2 - $164
BP 3 - $168
...
BP 20 - $236
BP 21 - $240
BP 22 - $240
BP 23 - $240

... but it was just an idea. Regardless of what we finally decide, the N5 BP formula is a lot simpler than the N5 IC formula.

[KWorld]

Hmmmm.  Maybe use the N5 formula for BPs, with a cap at 200-250?

[Walter]

25 is a nice number I think. That would give you a cap of 100 + 5 * 25 = 225. :)

[KWorld]

Easily done.

The attached spreadsheet has the IC and BP caps we've discussed in place for the home country.


Second-line countries could start with a range of values from $100-120, with 3rd-line countries from $35-75.

[KWorld]

And here's a possible mostly decolonized map.  The Dutch have kept their colonies, because they have a low home population and not enough room in Europe to grow too much, while the Brits have lost everything except Gibraltar, the Spanish have lost everything except the Azores, and everyone else has lost all their colonies.

[Jefgte]

That could be right for me.

:)