New French Battleships

[Jefgte]

...the 140mm guns are mounted on top of the main gun turrets...

And the gunners are very exposed to splinters.


This kind of mount is strictly forbiden in Peruvian Armada.


Jef  ;)

[maddox]

DeVits/DeTerme, French Glorious Dreadnaught laid down 1912 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   34.905 t light; 36.869 t standard; 42.483 t normal; 46.975 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   721,78 ft / 715,22 ft x 121,39 ft x 29,53 ft (normal load)
   220,00 m / 218,00 m x 37,00 m  x 9,00 m

Armament:
      8 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      20 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (10x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 11,02lbs / 5,00kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 16.358 lbs / 7.420 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14,5" / 368 mm   464,90 ft / 141,70 m   13,22 ft / 4,03 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   250,31 ft / 76,29 m   13,22 ft / 4,03 m
   Upper:   8,00" / 203 mm   464,90 ft / 141,70 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2,00" / 51 mm   700,00 ft / 213,36 m   30,00 ft / 9,14 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,5" / 368 mm   12,0" / 305 mm      14,5" / 368 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      2,00" / 51 mm

   - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14,50" / 368 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 41.895 shp / 31.254 Kw = 21,00 kts
   Range 9.000nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 10.106 tons

Complement:
   1.479 - 1.923

Cost:
   £3,075 million / $12,299 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.889 tons, 4,4%
   Armour: 14.677 tons, 34,5%
      - Belts: 5.733 tons, 13,5%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1.554 tons, 3,7%
      - Armament: 3.551 tons, 8,4%
      - Armour Deck: 3.459 tons, 8,1%
      - Conning Tower: 380 tons, 0,9%
   Machinery: 1.904 tons, 4,5%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 15.835 tons, 37,3%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 7.578 tons, 17,8%
   Miscellaneous weights: 600 tons, 1,4%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     82.254 lbs / 37.310 Kg = 49,1 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 18,8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,19
   Metacentric height 9,3 ft / 2,8 m
   Roll period: 16,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,36
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,33

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,580
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,89 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,74 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 38 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      32,15 ft / 9,80 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   21,33 ft / 6,50 m
      - Mid (50%):      18,80 ft / 5,73 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   18,80 ft / 5,73 m
      - Stern:      18,80 ft / 5,73 m
      - Average freeboard:   20,55 ft / 6,26 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 61,1%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 155,6%
   Waterplane Area: 62.322 Square feet or 5.790 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 124%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 199 lbs/sq ft or 973 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,97
      - Longitudinal: 1,26
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

A more modern lay out, the superfiring aversion overcome due the many excelent examples over the 7 seas. 2 main guns sacrificed to have better firing arcs

The 15" armor used on the DeCreme has proven qualitatively less than perfect, and by diminishing thickness with .5" the quality and expense problems are solved.
(one of the results of the speeded up building)

More extensive underwater protection for increased survivability in the age of bigger torpedo's.

600 tons misc.
250tons FC
100 tons Ears (3 sets)
100 tons flag facilities
150 tons crew comfort messures.

[Borys]

...the 140mm guns are mounted on top of the main gun turrets...

And the gunners are very exposed to splinters.

This kind of mount is strictly forbiden in Peruvian Armada.
Jef  ;)

Pansy!
Borys

[The Rock Doctor]

That's a very long torpedo bulkhead - is it practical so close to the ends of the ship?

[maddox]

A new idea of the French BB architects, even breached, a Torpedo Bulkhead will be less breached than the hull itself, therefor easier to contain the inflow of water/fuel and or/do battle repairs. 

[Guinness]

so more an inner hull than a torpedo bulkhead then?

[maddox]

You could look at it that way.

[P3D]

Problem is that you don't have much more beam fore and aft the citadel for torpedo protection.

Fore, the bow and forecastle are just too narrow. Aft the forecastle, the keel rises rapidly to makes space for the screws. My suggestion is to limit TBH length to say 80% of the total hull (that is 120% of the 'normal' length).

The ship is an oil tanker with capital ship armament. Does France really need to circumnavigate the globe without refueling?

Beam is excessive,I see no reason to have 120' beam. And the ship is either undergunned or overweight.

[maddox]

Problem is that you don't have much more beam fore and aft the citadel for torpedo protection.

Fore, the bow and forecastle are just too narrow. Aft the forecastle, the keel rises rapidly to makes space for the screws. My suggestion is to limit TBH length to say 80% of the total hull (that is 120% of the 'normal' length).

That would be logical. But is it a reason ? We have seen stranger things done irl.

The ship is an oil tanker with capital ship armament. Does France really need to circumnavigate the globe without refueling?

How else to reach French Polynesia if French Indochina ain't available anymore?Or reach the Great canal if the Atlantic is rife with enemy BB's?

Beam is excessive,I see no reason to have 120' beam.

From the start all the ships designed by me are slender of form but wide in the midsection.

And the ship is either undergunned or overweight.

Armament is heavier than the Queen Elisabeth class BB's and heavier than the armament of HMS Hood, the one a bit lighter but heavier protected and the other a lot bigger and faster.

[P3D]

That would be logical. But is it a reason ? We have seen stranger things done irl.

The reason would be that it just won't fit geometrically.

The ship is an oil tanker with capital ship armament. Does France really need to circumnavigate the globe without refueling?

How else to reach French Polynesia if French Indochina ain't available anymore?Or reach the Great canal if the Atlantic is rife with enemy BB's?

The ship has larger fuel capacity than the Iowa.
French Polynesia is a distant base, it's only importance being French presence in the region. I'd count on reaching it with refueling at Ceylon or the Grand Canal.

From the start all the ships designed by me are slender of form but wide in the midsection. 

K, this way it makes sense.

Armament is heavier than the Queen Elisabeth class BB's and heavier than the armament of HMS Hood, the one a bit lighter but heavier protected and the other a lot bigger and faster.

Main armament is the same as for the QEs and speed is 4kts lower (assuming QE at 25kts), the weight of the unarmored 14cms are almost negligible. Now compare it to the Bayern class, identical protection, main armament but on a 8,000t heavier hull.

[maddox]

Ill or non fitting bulkheads.
It just means that the bulkheads will get close to each other on the ends. It fits, just not easely nor with any good result in a fight.

On range and fuel capacity. The large fuel bunkers are the result of the requirement put on this ship to reach French Polynesia starting from Tricomalee or even Djibouti at a reasonable speed. And return.

Armament, speed and size. The slow top speed compared to the almost same sized and armed QE stems from the fact that the engines are about a decade older in design.
The Bayern class. You don't want to be on those ships for longer than a week, especialy not on the open sea.

And, Springsharp has its quirks. So do I.

[maddox]

This more to your liking then P3D?
Just a tweaked design, gaining speed, and secundary guns. Sacrificing armor and  cruise speed.

DeVits/DeTerme, French Glorious Dreadnaught laid down 1912 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   35.998 t light; 37.984 t standard; 42.138 t normal; 45.462 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   721,78 ft / 715,22 ft x 121,39 ft x 29,29 ft (normal load)
   220,00 m / 218,00 m x 37,00 m  x 8,93 m

Armament:
      8 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      24 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (12x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 11,02lbs / 5,00kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 16.729 lbs / 7.588 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14,5" / 368 mm   464,90 ft / 141,70 m   15,00 ft / 4,57 m
   Ends:   5,00" / 127 mm   250,31 ft / 76,29 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Upper:   8,00" / 203 mm   464,90 ft / 141,70 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2,00" / 51 mm   500,00 ft / 152,40 m   30,00 ft / 9,14 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,5" / 368 mm   12,0" / 305 mm      14,5" / 368 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      2,00" / 51 mm

   - Armour deck: 3,50" / 89 mm, Conning tower: 14,50" / 368 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 49.525 shp / 36.946 Kw = 22,00 kts
   Range 9.000nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 7.477 tons

Complement:
   1.469 - 1.911

Cost:
   £3,197 million / $12,787 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.931 tons, 4,6%
   Armour: 15.352 tons, 36,4%
      - Belts: 6.328 tons, 15,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1.110 tons, 2,6%
      - Armament: 3.501 tons, 8,3%
      - Armour Deck: 4.035 tons, 9,6%
      - Conning Tower: 378 tons, 0,9%
   Machinery: 2.251 tons, 5,3%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 15.865 tons, 37,6%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6.140 tons, 14,6%
   Miscellaneous weights: 600 tons, 1,4%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     74.376 lbs / 33.736 Kg = 44,4 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 15,5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,15
   Metacentric height 8,7 ft / 2,7 m
   Roll period: 17,2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,37
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,26

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,580
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,89 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,74 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 41 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29,53 ft / 9,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      18,70 ft / 5,70 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   18,70 ft / 5,70 m
      - Stern:      18,70 ft / 5,70 m
      - Average freeboard:   19,83 ft / 6,05 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 65,6%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 153,0%
   Waterplane Area: 62.322 Square feet or 5.790 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 201 lbs/sq ft or 982 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,98
      - Longitudinal: 1,20
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

A more modern lay out, the superfiring aversion overcome due the many examples over the 7 seas. 2 main guns sacrificed to have better firing arcs

The 15" armor used on the DeCreme has proven qualitatively less than perfect, and by diminishing thickness with .5" the quality and expense problems are solved.

600 tons misc.
250tons FC
100 tons Ears (3 sets)
100 tons flag facilities
150 tons crew comfort messures.

[maddox]

As shown in the HY report of HY01 1912, France layed down the keel of 4 new BB's.
No radical new desing came up, so the designers worked with the latest class of 25Ktons battleships, the Marats.

Marat B, French Dreadnought laid down 1912 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   24.156 t light; 25.730 t standard; 28.280 t normal; 30.320 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   564,30 ft / 557,74 ft x 94,49 ft x 28,54 ft (normal load)
   172,00 m / 170,00 m x 28,80 m  x 8,70 m

Armament:
      8 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      18 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 11,02lbs / 5,00kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 16.173 lbs / 7.336 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 110

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   362,53 ft / 110,50 m   15,00 ft / 4,57 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   195,19 ft / 59,49 m   15,00 ft / 4,57 m
   Upper:   8,00" / 203 mm   362,53 ft / 110,50 m   10,00 ft / 3,05 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   400,00 ft / 121,92 m   30,00 ft / 9,14 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      12,0" / 305 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm

   - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 29.199 shp / 21.783 Kw = 20,00 kts
   Range 7.000nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4.590 tons

Complement:
   1.089 - 1.417

Cost:
   £2,600 million / $10,401 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.868 tons, 6,6%
   Armour: 10.814 tons, 38,2%
      - Belts: 5.097 tons, 18,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 666 tons, 2,4%
      - Armament: 2.554 tons, 9,0%
      - Armour Deck: 2.257 tons, 8,0%
      - Conning Tower: 240 tons, 0,8%
   Machinery: 1.327 tons, 4,7%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 9.747 tons, 34,5%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.123 tons, 14,6%
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1,4%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     37.173 lbs / 16.861 Kg = 22,2 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 6,4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,11
   Metacentric height 5,6 ft / 1,7 m
   Roll period: 16,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,69
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,40

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,658
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,90 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26,25 ft / 8,00 m
      - Forecastle (15%):   17,39 ft / 5,30 m
      - Mid (50%):      16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (20%):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Stern:      16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   17,26 ft / 5,26 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 118,6%
   Waterplane Area: 40.668 Square feet or 3.778 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 179 lbs/sq ft or 876 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,95
      - Longitudinal: 1,50
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Marat B, the same hull as the original Marats, but redone for oil firing.
Due the lower weight of fuel, less draught.
Less freeboard to conserve stability.

400 tons misc weight is divided  between FC, a set of ears and crew comfort.

[The Rock Doctor]

Good, solid design.  I'm not certain about the wholesale abandonment of casemates for deck mounts - personally, I'm doing a class or two with a transitional mix of the two.

[Tanthalas]

Good, solid design.  I'm not certain about the wholesale abandonment of casemates for deck mounts - personally, I'm doing a class or two with a transitional mix of the two.

My I's have both (granted its only 4 casemates but still)