New French Battleships

[maddox]

 :-[

The idea was to build an ugly ship, not a beauty.

[maddox]

A proposal of a yard.   3 of these to replace the 6 Republiques.

Gannef, French Cuirassier Tres Rapide laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   21.247 t light; 22.520 t standard; 25.120 t normal; 27.200 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   688,98 ft / 688,98 ft x 98,43 ft x 27,07 ft (normal load)
   210,00 m / 210,00 m x 30,00 m  x 8,25 m

Armament:
      8 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      18 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 12.291 lbs / 5.575 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 110

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8,00" / 203 mm   447,83 ft / 136,50 m   11,91 ft / 3,63 m
   Ends:   3,00" / 76 mm   241,12 ft / 73,49 m   11,91 ft / 3,63 m
   Upper:   3,00" / 76 mm   447,83 ft / 136,50 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      0,75" / 19 mm   447,83 ft / 136,50 m   22,55 ft / 6,87 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8,00" / 203 mm   4,00" / 102 mm      8,00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   1,00" / 25 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      1,00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   0,50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 8,00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 74.544 shp / 55.610 Kw = 27,00 kts
   Range 9.800nm at 13,50 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4.680 tons

Complement:
   996 - 1.296

Cost:
   £2,542 million / $10,166 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.393 tons, 5,5%
   Armour: 6.073 tons, 24,2%
      - Belts: 2.613 tons, 10,4%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 280 tons, 1,1%
      - Armament: 1.392 tons, 5,5%
      - Armour Deck: 1.641 tons, 6,5%
      - Conning Tower: 148 tons, 0,6%
   Machinery: 2.972 tons, 11,8%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10.509 tons, 41,8%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.873 tons, 15,4%
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1,2%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     31.948 lbs / 14.491 Kg = 26,6 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 4,7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,19
   Metacentric height 6,8 ft / 2,1 m
   Roll period: 15,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,49
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,479
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,25 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29,53 ft / 9,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   21,33 ft / 6,50 m
      - Mid (50%):      17,72 ft / 5,40 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Stern:      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,96 ft / 5,78 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 103,1%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 154,3%
   Waterplane Area: 44.339 Square feet or 4.119 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 175 lbs/sq ft or 854 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,97
      - Longitudinal: 1,25
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Sachmle]

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8,00" / 203 mm   447,83 ft / 136,50 m   11,91 ft / 3,63 m
   Ends:   3,00" / 76 mm   241,12 ft / 73,49 m   11,91 ft / 3,63 m
   Upper:   3,00" / 76 mm   447,83 ft / 136,50 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length
  1*   Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
2*     0,75" / 19 mm   447,83 ft / 136,50 m   22,55 ft / 6,87 m

1* Oops.
2* Pointless IMO

[The Rock Doctor]

Agreed.  I think the block coefficient is rather low for a 21,000 t ship, too.

Otherwise, probably a reasonable Dutch-style BC.

[miketr]

Otherwise, probably a reasonable Dutch-style BC.

So is there Dutch and Iberian style BC's?  ;)

Got to agree that the Torpedo Defense is questionable.  Its beamer than, my BC by a good 4 feet but that TBD is thin and not fully covering the mags / engines is also bad.

Michael

[Sachmle]

Otherwise, probably a reasonable Dutch-style BC.

So is there Dutch and Iberian style BC's?  ;)

Michael

I'd say so. There are similarities, but also some sizable differences. I also notice the Rohan and Gran Columbian Battle cruisers as slightly different from the others. See the post I'll make shortly on the different Amoured Cruisers/Amoured Frigates/Battlecruisers/whatever the hell people call them in the General Naval Thread.  ;)

[maddox]

Increased length of belt armor and torpedo bulkhead as well thickness of that to 1".
To compensate for the weight increase, I diminished the main armor from 8 to 7",and played a bit with cruising speed and range.
To get the ship down to 21Ktons, I had to leave out 10 shells per main gun.

Gannef, French Cuirassier Tres Rapide laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   21.001 t light; 22.204 t standard; 25.120 t normal; 27.453 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   688,98 ft / 688,98 ft x 98,43 ft x 27,07 ft (normal load)
   210,00 m / 210,00 m x 30,00 m  x 8,25 m

Armament:
      8 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      18 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 12.291 lbs / 5.575 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7,00" / 178 mm   500,00 ft / 152,40 m   11,00 ft / 3,35 m
   Ends:   3,00" / 76 mm   188,68 ft / 57,51 m   11,00 ft / 3,35 m
   Upper:   3,00" / 76 mm   447,83 ft / 136,50 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 112% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,00" / 25 mm   500,00 ft / 152,40 m   23,00 ft / 7,01 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7,00" / 178 mm   4,00" / 102 mm      8,00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   1,00" / 25 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      1,00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   0,50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 7,00" / 178 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 74.544 shp / 55.610 Kw = 27,00 kts
   Range 10.200nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5.249 tons

Complement:
   996 - 1.296

Cost:
   £2,532 million / $10,129 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.393 tons, 5,5%
   Armour: 5.867 tons, 23,4%
      - Belts: 2.307 tons, 9,2%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 426 tons, 1,7%
      - Armament: 1.365 tons, 5,4%
      - Armour Deck: 1.641 tons, 6,5%
      - Conning Tower: 129 tons, 0,5%
   Machinery: 2.972 tons, 11,8%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10.469 tons, 41,7%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.119 tons, 16,4%
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1,2%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     32.274 lbs / 14.639 Kg = 26,9 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 4,9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,21
   Metacentric height 7,0 ft / 2,1 m
   Roll period: 15,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,48
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,23

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,479
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,25 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29,53 ft / 9,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   21,33 ft / 6,50 m
      - Mid (50%):      17,72 ft / 5,40 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Stern:      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,96 ft / 5,78 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102,8%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 154,3%
   Waterplane Area: 44.339 Square feet or 4.119 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 174 lbs/sq ft or 850 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,97
      - Longitudinal: 1,26
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Looks like a nice AC. And it must have a distinct appearance. At the same time it is beamy, as to carry those quads, but with very low BC. Thus the turrets are as far as possible from the stem and stern. So I imagine a very short citadel in the centre of the ship. Maybe even a queer arrngement of turret, bridge, boilers/stacks, maybe one set of turbines, turret, either all, or part of turbines. Or a licensed electric drive, again with part of the powerplant AFT of the Y turret.
Jeftge, what says you?
Maybe worth posting at Warship Projects, with such an inquiry?
Borys

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I checked an old post by P3D, who kindly listed various barbette diameters, and found the figure of 39' for the 34cm quad.

Borys

[P3D]

4 twin turrets not two quads, Borys.
I'd reduce the beam, perhaps add a bit length, fill the displacement to get 80,000SHP, then thicken the armor. The ship must face 12-14" guns on enemy BCs.
Or shorten the ship, reduce beam, keeping 80,000SHP in mind, and add armor. Would make a lighter ship.
Compare to the Holland BC on 25,000t.

[Borys]

Oh, so I ran off after a red herring after missreading the file?
:D
Four twins is OK.
Borys

[maddox]

Took the changes proposed by P3D in account. Lenghtened the ship to the max in the class 3 yards.
Uparmored it to the Valeur thickness of armor.
Slimmed it down, and increased BC, gained 2Ktons.

Gannef, French Cuirassier Tres Rapide laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   23.006 t light; 24.244 t standard; 27.447 t normal; 30.010 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   721,78 ft / 721,78 ft x 91,86 ft x 26,25 ft (normal load)
   220,00 m / 220,00 m x 28,00 m  x 8,00 m

Armament:
      8 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 11,02lbs / 5,00kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 12.108 lbs / 5.492 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11,0" / 279 mm   500,00 ft / 152,40 m   11,00 ft / 3,35 m
   Ends:   5,00" / 127 mm   188,68 ft / 57,51 m   11,00 ft / 3,35 m
     33,10 ft / 10,09 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   5,00" / 127 mm   447,83 ft / 136,50 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 107% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,00" / 25 mm   500,00 ft / 152,40 m   23,00 ft / 7,01 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11,0" / 279 mm   4,00" / 102 mm      10,0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   1,00" / 25 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      1,00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   0,50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 7,00" / 178 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 78.992 shp / 58.928 Kw = 27,00 kts
   Range 10.500nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5.766 tons

Complement:
   1.066 - 1.386

Cost:
   £2,617 million / $10,467 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.372 tons, 5,0%
   Armour: 7.656 tons, 27,9%
      - Belts: 3.706 tons, 13,5%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 426 tons, 1,6%
      - Armament: 1.672 tons, 6,1%
      - Armour Deck: 1.715 tons, 6,2%
      - Conning Tower: 137 tons, 0,5%
   Machinery: 3.150 tons, 11,5%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10.579 tons, 38,5%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.441 tons, 16,2%
   Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 0,9%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     36.357 lbs / 16.491 Kg = 30,3 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 5,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,17
   Metacentric height 5,9 ft / 1,8 m
   Roll period: 15,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,59
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,552
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,86 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,87 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29,53 ft / 9,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   21,33 ft / 6,50 m
      - Mid (50%):      17,72 ft / 5,40 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Stern:      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,96 ft / 5,78 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97,7%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 150,7%
   Waterplane Area: 46.361 Square feet or 4.307 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 166 lbs/sq ft or 812 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,99
      - Longitudinal: 1,02
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[The Rock Doctor]

A bit more miscellaneous weight - for stuff other than Fire Control - might be wise, but othewise, it's looking pretty good.

[maddox]

To keep her seakeeping and stability ok, I had to reduce beam even more, increase BC, but gained a bit of leeway to spend on the misc weight, like 170 tons extra.

She's still reasonably armored for her class, the speed is ridiculously high for a French ship,and the main battery is nothing to triffle with.

Gannef, French Cuirassier Tres Rapide laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   22.897 t light; 24.132 t standard; 27.330 t normal; 29.888 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   721,78 ft / 721,78 ft x 88,58 ft x 26,25 ft (normal load)
   220,00 m / 220,00 m x 27,00 m  x 8,00 m

Armament:
      8 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 11,02lbs / 5,00kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 12.108 lbs / 5.492 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11,0" / 279 mm   500,00 ft / 152,40 m   11,00 ft / 3,35 m
   Ends:   5,00" / 127 mm   188,68 ft / 57,51 m   11,00 ft / 3,35 m
     33,10 ft / 10,09 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   5,00" / 127 mm   447,83 ft / 136,50 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 107% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,00" / 25 mm   500,00 ft / 152,40 m   23,00 ft / 7,01 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11,0" / 279 mm   4,00" / 102 mm      10,0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   1,00" / 25 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      1,00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   0,50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 7,00" / 178 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 78.936 shp / 58.886 Kw = 27,00 kts
   Range 10.500nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5.756 tons

Complement:
   1.062 - 1.381

Cost:
   £2,612 million / $10,449 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.372 tons, 5,0%
   Armour: 7.615 tons, 27,9%
      - Belts: 3.699 tons, 13,5%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 426 tons, 1,6%
      - Armament: 1.672 tons, 6,1%
      - Armour Deck: 1.682 tons, 6,2%
      - Conning Tower: 137 tons, 0,5%
   Machinery: 3.147 tons, 11,5%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10.343 tons, 37,8%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.433 tons, 16,2%
   Miscellaneous weights: 420 tons, 1,5%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     35.033 lbs / 15.891 Kg = 29,2 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 4,9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,14
   Metacentric height 5,4 ft / 1,6 m
   Roll period: 16,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,68
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,570
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8,15 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,87 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29,53 ft / 9,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   21,33 ft / 6,50 m
      - Mid (50%):      17,72 ft / 5,40 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Stern:      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,96 ft / 5,78 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99,9%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 148,4%
   Waterplane Area: 45.467 Square feet or 4.224 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 164 lbs/sq ft or 799 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1,00
      - Longitudinal: 1,00
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Guinness]

Any chance someone could post the link to the post about barbette diameter from P3D that Borys found for us new guys?

Nevermind, I found it:

http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=727.msg13999#msg13999