New French Battleships

[maddox]

Artists impression of the desing "DeCreme". A successor to Sup, aheum, Chanson.



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thanks for the drawing Tanthalas

[P3D]

Not ugly enough.

A and Y are way too close to the ends, B and X should be superfiring to save space and move them more amidships.

[maddox]

The ugly comment I can support.

But the superfiring turrets. Not in this ship.Thanthalas is reworking her.

The official stats from the design bureau.

DeCreme, French Glorious Dreadnaught laid down 1910

Displacement:
   32.263 t light; 34.188 t standard; 37.902 t normal; 40.874 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   728,35 ft / 721,78 ft x 121,39 ft x 27,33 ft (normal load)
   222,00 m / 220,00 m x 37,00 m  x 8,33 m

Armament:
      10 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (5x2 guns), 1.199,24lbs / 543,97kg shells, 1910 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
      5 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      12 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
      10 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 13.671 lbs / 6.201 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   15,0" / 381 mm   469,16 ft / 143,00 m   13,22 ft / 4,03 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   252,60 ft / 76,99 m   13,22 ft / 4,03 m
   Upper:   8,00" / 203 mm   469,16 ft / 143,00 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   469,16 ft / 143,00 m   27,17 ft / 8,28 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15,0" / 381 mm   12,0" / 305 mm      15,0" / 381 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      2,00" / 51 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      2,00" / 51 mm
   4th:   1,00" / 25 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 15,00" / 381 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 46.174 shp / 34.446 Kw = 22,00 kts
   Range 9.000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 6.686 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   1.357 - 1.765

Cost:
   £2,843 million / $11,371 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.690 tons, 4,5%
   Armour: 13.998 tons, 36,9%
      - Belts: 5.904 tons, 15,6%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 707 tons, 1,9%
      - Armament: 3.615 tons, 9,5%
      - Armour Deck: 3.406 tons, 9,0%
      - Conning Tower: 365 tons, 1,0%
   Machinery: 2.099 tons, 5,5%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 14.276 tons, 37,7%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.639 tons, 14,9%
   Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 0,5%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     74.537 lbs / 33.810 Kg = 62,2 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 14,7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,25
   Metacentric height 10,1 ft / 3,1 m
   Roll period: 16,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,26
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,30

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,554
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,95 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,87 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 39 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      32,15 ft / 9,80 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   21,33 ft / 6,50 m
      - Mid (50%):      18,80 ft / 5,73 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   18,80 ft / 5,73 m
      - Stern:      18,80 ft / 5,73 m
      - Average freeboard:   20,55 ft / 6,26 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 64,6%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 167,0%
   Waterplane Area: 61.378 Square feet or 5.702 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 119%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 185 lbs/sq ft or 902 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,99
      - Longitudinal: 1,15
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Sachmle]

No dazzle camo?  LOL ;D http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazzle_camouflage

[Tanthalas]

only because i refuse to paint it I dont wana go blind

[maddox]

This better P3D?.
End On fire is reduced.  But lay out improved.


Thanks to Tanthalas, again.

[Sachmle]

Now is ungainly, lol.... Plus no longer kill admiral if Y turret fire directly aft
ADDED LATER:  Could do Truinfante side by side bow and make X and Q en echelon amidships.  Same # turrets and guns, better fire if chasing, less broadside though.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I don't like the arrangment of either. I partly agree with Sachmle - Berta and Felix should be crossdecking, en echelon, amidships. Anton - alone fore, and Dora and Emil should be back to back aft.
Borys

[Ithekro]

Sometimes common sense wins over style.   Sometimes....

[Korpen]

This better P3D?.
End On fire is reduced.  But lay out improved.


Thanks to Tanthalas, again.

B&D turrets will have horrible firing arcs, considering the spacing of the turrets i think that 90-100 degrees on each beam is the best that can be hoped for.

And i think the ship is over-armoured; there are no guns in existence that motivates that much armour. If (unlikely considering the tech of the day) the plate offer full protection for its thickness, it will stop a 38cm AP shell at around 20hm, and smaller shells at even shorter range.
It would be possible to reduce the main belt with 10%, and not suffer any real loss in protection, the saved weight could be used to make the belt deeper.

[Carthaginian]

Go with the first version, Maddox.

So it's a bit cramped, and the turret placement for 1 & 5 are as close to the ends as some pre-dreads. If there is technically enough room for engines, then I'd say 'build it like that.'
I LIKE the lack of superfiring- it gives the ship character. It's not trying to be an uber-ship... just the biggest of the big, fitting right in with France's general desige to be 'Glorious' in all ways.

Sometimes, designing the BEST ship gets confused with designing the PERFECT one.

[maddox]

Actualy, there seems to be a matter of size/perspective. 
All the 6 centerline turreted ships I have found- albeit superfiring- weren't as long as the DeCreme with its 220m. 
They got all 6 turrets on, and with a larger superstructure than this Glorious design.

Even Agincourt achived 7 turrets in a useable lay out.

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In the end, I think it will be a combination of the 2 drawings. 

Fun idea
Side profile 2 smokestacks, but in effect having 4, with 2 side by side stacks (like the Majestics)

[Korpen]

Actualy, there seems to be a matter of size/perspective. 
All the 6 centerline turreted ships I have found- albeit superfiring- weren't as long as the DeCreme with its 220m. 
They got all 6 turrets on, and with a larger superstructure than this Glorious design.



************************************************************************************
In the end, I think it will be a combination of the 2 drawings. 

Fun idea
Side profile 2 smokestacks, but in effect having 4, with 2 side by side stacks (like the Majestics)

The limiting factor is not the length of the ship, it is the length of the belt, as it is taken for granted that you want all the main gun inside the main belt. Superfiring will save at least 20-30m of belt.

Even Agincourt achived 7 turrets in a useable lay out.

She also had a belt covering around 75% of her waterline lenght.

[Sachmle]

Even Agincourt achived 7 turrets in a useable lay out.

She also had a belt covering around 75% of her waterline lenght.

And it was still to short. The belt only continues to the middle of the barbette of Sunday turret.  Also, she has to superfiring turrets, if they were all on deck the belt would have to cover the whole damn ship

[Carthaginian]

The limiting factor is not the length of the ship, it is the length of the belt, as it is taken for granted that you want all the main gun inside the main belt. Superfiring will save at least 20-30m of belt.

Korpen... bluntly, what if he DOESN'T WANT to save that weight?
I mean, he's designed a good ship, and the art isn't actually to scale. Lots of room for error as to whether or not the drawing there is actually giving you a good impression as to what it looks like. SS might not be perfect, but it asumes that the turrets will fit; if it's good enough that way, it's good enough for the game, I guess.

If we knew the EXACT length of, asy, the British 15" turret, we could see if this would fit.
Anyone here know that or have a site we can use to find it?

Even Agincourt achived 7 turrets in a useable lay out.

She also had a belt covering around 75% of her waterline lenght.

And this ship has one that covers 65% of her length.