New French Battleships

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I think that even before the Kongo the Japanese had 12inch armed ACs. Italians too?

Borys

[swamphen]

Definitly 10" for the Italians (Pisa, San Marcos), 12" if you consider the Regina Elena et al to be cruisers (they were much more battlecruiser than battleship...).

[maddox]

The Springsharp of the ship talked about in the "Current events" of july 1906.

Valeur, French Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   17.489 t light; 18.559 t standard; 20.285 t normal; 21.666 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   498,69 ft / 492,13 ft x 88,58 ft x 27,89 ft (normal load)
   152,00 m / 150,00 m x 27,00 m  x 8,50 m

Armament:
      6 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1905 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      12 - 7,68" / 195 mm guns (6x2 guns), 226,24lbs / 102,62kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      18 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1903 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
      12 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 11.413 lbs / 5.177 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11,0" / 279 mm   320,00 ft / 97,54 m   11,29 ft / 3,44 m
   Ends:   8,00" / 203 mm   172,00 ft / 52,43 m   11,29 ft / 3,44 m
   Upper:   8,00" / 203 mm   320,00 ft / 97,54 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   500,00 ft / 152,40 m   25,00 ft / 7,62 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11,0" / 279 mm   9,00" / 229 mm      9,00" / 229 mm
   2nd:   8,00" / 203 mm   5,00" / 127 mm      5,00" / 127 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   2,00" / 51 mm      2,00" / 51 mm

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 11,00" / 279 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 24.157 shp / 18.021 Kw = 20,00 kts
   Range 6.000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3.106 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   849 - 1.104

Cost:
   £1,902 million / $7,607 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.334 tons, 6,6%
   Armour: 7.402 tons, 36,5%
      - Belts: 3.249 tons, 16,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 694 tons, 3,4%
      - Armament: 2.121 tons, 10,5%
      - Armour Deck: 1.162 tons, 5,7%
      - Conning Tower: 176 tons, 0,9%
   Machinery: 1.208 tons, 6,0%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7.445 tons, 36,7%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.796 tons, 13,8%
   Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0,5%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     26.413 lbs / 11.981 Kg = 22,0 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 5,0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 5,0 ft / 1,5 m
   Roll period: 16,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,65
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,39

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,584
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,56 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22,18 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26,90 ft / 8,20 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      16,40 ft / 5,00 m (15,52 ft / 4,73 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   15,52 ft / 4,73 m
      - Stern:      15,52 ft / 4,73 m
      - Average freeboard:   17,69 ft / 5,39 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90,3%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 117,6%
   Waterplane Area: 31.410 Square feet or 2.918 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 171 lbs/sq ft or 834 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,93
      - Longitudinal: 1,93
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[P3D]

Thin armor.

[maddox]

French experiments with the new Herauld Carbonated plate does give the designers confidence that 11" is the equivalent of 14" old style plate.

Saving the weight of the armor gives more speed and firepower on a smaller hull

[Earl822]

hmmmm, after a quick session with Springsharp, I've come up with this. Think of the RL Courbet with 4 twin 340mm turrets instead of 6 twin 305mm turrets.

Courbet, France BB laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   18,381 t light; 19,894 t standard; 21,777 t normal; 23,283 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   550.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 26.65 ft (normal load)
   167.64 m / 167.64 m x 24.38 m  x 8.12 m

Armament:
      4 - 13.39" / 340 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,322.77lbs / 600.00kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 13.39" / 340 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,322.77lbs / 600.00kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      18 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.72lbs / 37.98kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      12 - 2.76" / 70.0 mm guns in single mounts, 10.47lbs / 4.75kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 12,215 lbs / 5,541 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   350.00 ft / 106.68 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   200.00 ft / 60.96 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   350.00 ft / 106.68 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   500.00 ft / 152.40 m   25.00 ft / 7.62 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   9.00" / 229 mm      11.0" / 279 mm
   2nd:   12.0" / 305 mm   9.00" / 229 mm      11.0" / 279 mm
   3rd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      2.00" / 51 mm
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12.50" / 318 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 24,499 shp / 18,276 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 6,200nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,389 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   896 - 1,165

Cost:
   £1.994 million / $7.974 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,403 tons, 6.4 %
   Armour: 7,651 tons, 35.1 %
      - Belts: 3,472 tons, 15.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 694 tons, 3.2 %
      - Armament: 2,028 tons, 9.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,247 tons, 5.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 210 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,225 tons, 5.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,976 tons, 36.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,396 tons, 15.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 125 tons, 0.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     27,932 lbs / 12,670 Kg = 23.3 x 13.4 " / 340 mm shells or 4.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 4.2 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 16.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.87
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.31

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.650
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.88 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.59 ft / 5.06 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 116.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 33,707 Square feet or 3,131 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 169 lbs/sq ft or 827 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.44
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[maddox]

It all depends if Premier Paixhans listens to Admiral Geon or not.

Will Glorious France build a few Greater Napoleons, or a fleet of little Valeurs?

Currently, the Napoleon the Great is in the outfitting dock, and the successor, the 28000 tons monster Superbe Lorraine is being layed down.

[Earl822]

Yes, the eternal struggle.

EDIT:-

Found I'd put waay to many shells into Courbet, so here's the revised version

Courbet, France BB laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   18,323 t light; 19,621 t standard; 21,777 t normal; 23,502 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   550.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 26.65 ft (normal load)
   167.64 m / 167.64 m x 24.38 m  x 8.12 m

Armament:
      4 - 13.39" / 340 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,322.77lbs / 600.00kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 13.39" / 340 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,322.77lbs / 600.00kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      18 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.72lbs / 37.98kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      12 - 2.76" / 70.0 mm guns in single mounts, 10.47lbs / 4.75kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 12,215 lbs / 5,541 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   350.00 ft / 106.68 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   200.00 ft / 60.96 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   350.00 ft / 106.68 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   500.00 ft / 152.40 m   25.00 ft / 7.62 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   9.00" / 229 mm      11.0" / 279 mm
   2nd:   12.0" / 305 mm   9.00" / 229 mm      11.0" / 279 mm
   3rd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      2.00" / 51 mm
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12.50" / 318 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 24,499 shp / 18,276 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,881 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   896 - 1,165

Cost:
   £1.992 million / $7.966 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,403 tons, 6.4 %
   Armour: 7,651 tons, 35.1 %
      - Belts: 3,472 tons, 15.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 694 tons, 3.2 %
      - Armament: 2,028 tons, 9.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,247 tons, 5.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 210 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,225 tons, 5.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,919 tons, 36.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,453 tons, 15.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 125 tons, 0.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     28,239 lbs / 12,809 Kg = 23.5 x 13.4 " / 340 mm shells or 4.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 4.2 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 16.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.87
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.32

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.650
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.88 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.59 ft / 5.06 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 116.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 33,707 Square feet or 3,131 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 168 lbs/sq ft or 821 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.44
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Looks OK.
But I think we should be cautious about wing turrets with over 12 inch guns. As far as I know, none were ever built. I only managed to dig up that British designed Dutch never-were. I've read that the move up from 12 inch to 13,5-14 inch was a factor in the move towards all centerline. So, unless this is an urban legend, I recommend caution. My unease with this arrangement with weak OTL evidence to back it made me overbuilt my warship. And maybe twin or larger wing turrets with guns over 14 should simply be banned?

Borys

[maddox]

@earl822

Premier Paixhans is the man to talk to. Try to convince him to buy more UKA ships.

And your next 4 main turrets will be ready for delivery in HY1 1907.  ;)

Borys,
The reason echolon main gun turrets got abandoned is that superfiring became standard. You don't have to fit an extra turret to keep your broadside.

[Earl822]

UKA yards are using every BP they have, and those turrets will be gratefully received in the UKA yards, where fitting out will be starting.

[maddox]

With the 2 Valeurs nearing completion, France is ready for the next serie of 2 battleships.

Looking around in the world, noticing that Battleships are getting bigger and bigger, with the brandnew Valeurs tiny, undergunned and underarmored. Also, the rest of the world isn't using large secundaries.
And reports from tests by the BB's with large caliber secundaries gave the naval architects the confidence that a larger main battery  augmented with smaller but more numerous secundaries can be accepted by the admirality and politicians.

Marat/Robbespiere, French Dreadnought laid down 1909

Displacement:
   23.759 t light; 25.257 t standard; 27.378 t normal; 29.075 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   564,30 ft / 557,74 ft x 114,83 ft x 26,57 ft (normal load)
   172,00 m / 170,00 m x 35,00 m  x 8,10 m

Armament:
      8 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.199,24lbs / 543,97kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 6 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 11.117 lbs / 5.043 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   15,0" / 381 mm   362,53 ft / 110,50 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
   Ends:   8,00" / 203 mm   195,19 ft / 59,49 m   12,67 ft / 3,86 m
   Upper:   8,00" / 203 mm   362,53 ft / 110,50 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   500,00 ft / 152,40 m   36,00 ft / 10,97 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      10,0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm

   - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 28.628 shp / 21.356 Kw = 20,00 kts
   Range 6.000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3.818 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   1.063 - 1.383

Cost:
   £2,184 million / $8,738 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.372 tons, 5,0%
   Armour: 10.983 tons, 40,1%
      - Belts: 5.204 tons, 19,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 999 tons, 3,6%
      - Armament: 2.035 tons, 7,4%
      - Armour Deck: 2.511 tons, 9,2%
      - Conning Tower: 235 tons, 0,9%
   Machinery: 1.431 tons, 5,2%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 9.822 tons, 35,9%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.619 tons, 13,2%
   Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0,5%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     47.397 lbs / 21.499 Kg = 39,5 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 10,9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,18
   Metacentric height 8,4 ft / 2,6 m
   Roll period: 16,6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 90 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,31
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,38

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,563
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4,86 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 65
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      27,89 ft / 8,50 m
      - Forecastle (15%):   18,04 ft / 5,50 m
      - Mid (50%):      17,39 ft / 5,30 m
      - Quarterdeck (20%):   16,54 ft / 5,04 m
      - Stern:      16,54 ft / 5,04 m
      - Average freeboard:   17,89 ft / 5,45 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 69,3%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 140,8%
   Waterplane Area: 45.245 Square feet or 4.203 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 174 lbs/sq ft or 849 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,96
      - Longitudinal: 1,55
      - Overall: 1,01
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

The successors of the Valeur class.
The 150 tons misc are mainly a set of Ears and a flag bridge. Of course, crew comfort is important too.

The ommition of the 195mm secundary turrets gave room for a heaver main gun armament. Also, the 195mm turrets are not fast enough to shoot enemy TB's or torpedoboat destroyers; The  16 140mm guns do have the combination of punch and speed of action.
Increase of armor protection, especialy underwater protection was very important in the design. The lessons from the Pacific war are digested.

The 4 70mm QF guns are mounted with defence against the flying spies-airships- in mind.

[Borys]

Very good.
I would make MB 13 inch, and turret face 14 inch, but apart from that I could take it for my fleet.
Borys

[P3D]

The Marat has way too shallow draught and too wide for its length. Reduce beam and perhaps increase draught.

Belt too thick, turret armor too thin.

[maddox]

The shallow draft and the beam are typical French solutions to the "Torpedo Problem".

But the changed version.

Marat/Robbespiere, French Dreadnought laid down 1909

Displacement:
   23.419 t light; 24.909 t standard; 26.992 t normal; 28.660 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   564,30 ft / 557,74 ft x 108,27 ft x 27,79 ft (normal load)
   172,00 m / 170,00 m x 33,00 m  x 8,47 m

Armament:
      8 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.199,24lbs / 543,97kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 6 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 11.117 lbs / 5.043 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   362,53 ft / 110,50 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
   Ends:   8,00" / 203 mm   195,19 ft / 59,49 m   12,67 ft / 3,86 m
   Upper:   8,00" / 203 mm   362,53 ft / 110,50 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   500,00 ft / 152,40 m   36,00 ft / 10,97 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   12,0" / 305 mm      14,0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm

   - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 15,00" / 381 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 28.028 shp / 20.909 Kw = 20,00 kts
   Range 6.000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3.751 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   1.052 - 1.368

Cost:
   £2,168 million / $8,673 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.372 tons, 5,1%
   Armour: 10.980 tons, 40,7%
      - Belts: 4.718 tons, 17,5%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 999 tons, 3,7%
      - Armament: 2.605 tons, 9,7%
      - Armour Deck: 2.368 tons, 8,8%
      - Conning Tower: 291 tons, 1,1%
   Machinery: 1.401 tons, 5,2%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 9.515 tons, 35,2%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.574 tons, 13,2%
   Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0,6%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     45.676 lbs / 20.718 Kg = 38,1 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 10,0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,20
   Metacentric height 7,8 ft / 2,4 m
   Roll period: 16,2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 74 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,32
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,40

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,563
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,15 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      27,89 ft / 8,50 m
      - Forecastle (15%):   18,04 ft / 5,50 m
      - Mid (50%):      17,39 ft / 5,30 m
      - Quarterdeck (20%):   16,54 ft / 5,04 m
      - Stern:      16,54 ft / 5,04 m
      - Average freeboard:   17,89 ft / 5,45 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 70,7%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 134,2%
   Waterplane Area: 42.660 Square feet or 3.963 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 173 lbs/sq ft or 846 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,95
      - Longitudinal: 1,56
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily