New French Battleships

[TexanCowboy]

Bad maddox! Bad maddox!

*Thwaps with newspaper*

Of course, at least it isn't dazzlepainted...

[maddox]

 ;D


On what base are you calling me bad TC?   The Profiable "dodging" or the new Champagne 25Kton BB?

[TexanCowboy]

The new BB.

I would call you bad for the Profitable, but that deserve's more the title of "Swiss"

[maddox]

Now I feel compelled to commission a drawing with Champagne in Dazzle paint.

[Ithekro]

The horror, the horror.

[Guinness]

Inspiring...

[The Rock Doctor]

The advantage of dial-up:  time to abort an upload before I have to see it.

[Tanthalas]

The advantage of dial-up:  time to abort an upload before I have to see it.

Be thankfull you have saved your eyes.

[maddox]

An offshoot of Brittanie. Less main guns, but more speed and more distributed armor with a much heavier deck.

Marteau, French GBB laid down 1920

Displacement:
   33.974 t light; 35.972 t standard; 38.309 t normal; 40.177 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   692,26 ft / 688,98 ft x 114,83 ft x 28,87 ft (normal load)
   211,00 m / 210,00 m x 35,00 m  x 8,80 m

Armament:
      9 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1914 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      20 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (10x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
      10 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 18.137 lbs / 8.227 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   413,39 ft / 126,00 m   22,00 ft / 6,71 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 92% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2,00" / 51 mm   413,39 ft / 126,00 m   27,56 ft / 8,40 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      14,0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   0,50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 4,00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 13,00" / 330 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 65.404 shp / 48.791 Kw = 24,00 kts
   Range 6.000nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4.205 tons

Complement:
   1.368 - 1.779

Cost:
   £7,726 million / $30,906 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2.095 tons, 5,5%
   Armour: 14.055 tons, 36,7%
      - Belts: 5.720 tons, 14,9%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 843 tons, 2,2%
      - Armament: 2.943 tons, 7,7%
      - Armour Deck: 4.230 tons, 11,0%
      - Conning Tower: 318 tons, 0,8%
   Machinery: 2.287 tons, 6,0%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 15.038 tons, 39,3%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.335 tons, 11,3%
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1,3%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     57.738 lbs / 26.190 Kg = 34,5 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 10,5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,14
   Metacentric height 7,9 ft / 2,4 m
   Roll period: 17,2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 73 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,47
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,26

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,587
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,25 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29,53 ft / 9,00 m
      - Forecastle (22%):   19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      18,04 ft / 5,50 m
      - Quarterdeck (18%):   18,04 ft / 5,50 m
      - Stern:      18,04 ft / 5,50 m
      - Average freeboard:   19,50 ft / 5,94 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76,6%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 146,7%
   Waterplane Area: 57.164 Square feet or 5.311 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 205 lbs/sq ft or 1.001 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,97
      - Longitudinal: 1,32
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

250 ton BB FC
100 ton cruiser FC- secundaries and AA
50 ton damage control
25 ton Long range marconi
25 ton ERADe
50 ton crew comfort

[maddox]

Simple, cheap and sturdy. A Bretagne hull smoothed down a bit, 1 main gun extra, the old armor sceme replaced by an extensive inclined main belt. Speed up the minimum stated by the agreements between the Nassau partners.

Danton II class, French Battleship laid down 1920

Displacement:
   25.500 t light; 27.290 t standard; 29.313 t normal; 30.932 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557,74 ft / 554,46 ft x 94,49 ft x 28,54 ft (normal load)
   170,00 m / 169,00 m x 28,80 m  x 8,70 m

Armament:
      9 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1914 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (8x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
      10 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 17.767 lbs / 8.059 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   365,94 ft / 111,54 m   22,00 ft / 6,71 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 102% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2,00" / 51 mm   365,94 ft / 111,54 m   30,00 ft / 9,14 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   8,00" / 203 mm      14,0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   0,50" / 13 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 43.695 shp / 32.596 Kw = 22,00 kts
   Range 6.000nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3.642 tons

Complement:
   1.119 - 1.456

Cost:
   £6,691 million / $26,764 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2.053 tons, 7,0%
   Armour: 10.852 tons, 37,0%
      - Belts: 4.994 tons, 17,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 812 tons, 2,8%
      - Armament: 2.499 tons, 8,5%
      - Armour Deck: 2.302 tons, 7,9%
      - Conning Tower: 246 tons, 0,8%
   Machinery: 1.528 tons, 5,2%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10.667 tons, 36,4%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.813 tons, 13,0%
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1,4%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     34.354 lbs / 15.583 Kg = 20,5 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 5,9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,09
   Metacentric height 5,4 ft / 1,7 m
   Roll period: 17,0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,69
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,09

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,686
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,87 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,55 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26,25 ft / 8,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      15,09 ft / 4,60 m
      - Quarterdeck (14%):   15,09 ft / 4,60 m
      - Stern:      15,09 ft / 4,60 m
      - Average freeboard:   16,34 ft / 4,98 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91,7%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 108,6%
   Waterplane Area: 41.471 Square feet or 3.853 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 195 lbs/sq ft or 953 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,95
      - Longitudinal: 1,62
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

An updated Bretagne design.
250 ton FC
25 ton ERADe equipment
25 ton Long range marconi
50 ton aviation equipment, 2 floatplanes+ gear
50 ton crew comfort

[TexanCowboy]

I'm going to comment on the designs in order.

On the first design, you have a ship about 1.5kt lighter then Occitaine, but with three less guns. Is that worth the tradeoff? I'm inclined to think no. Also, do you need a seperate fire control for the secondaries?

On the scond design, I like it. :) I'm not sure if a triple can fit on the beam, considering that the R-class had a 88.5' beam, and the Vittorio Vento class had a 108' beam, but I'll leave that one to people more knowledgable then me on that. Maybe for more of a quirky French feel, the superfiring turret could be placed aft?

[Sachmle]

Unfortunately, I think Tex is right about the beam. While there aren't very many ships w/ triple 15" guns, those that there are have beams over 31m. There are, however, lots of ships w/ 28m beams, and all of them are triple 12".

[Logi]

Yet the Normandie class could mysteriously mount quad 14"s on a 27m beam. ;)

The diameter for a 15" triple isn't very high and can be fitted into a 94.49ft beam with TDS readily. The high cB of the Danton II also means that slim fore and aft beam (where the guns are) isn't much of a problem.

I like the second design more due to displacement, but I'm would be worried about the immunity zone. The larger calibers guns (16" and greater) mean that the belt isn't so much the problem as the deck. 3" is starting to get thin.

[Kaiser Kirk]

I've wondered for a bit about the Normandie's provisions for torpedo defense. Did she have an interior bulge and holding bulkhead? How deep were those compartments?  That could be why she was so narrow.

For the turret, not only do you need space for the barbette diameter, but the supporting structure, sufficient set back for flash protection around the magazines, and then space for the TDS system- which I think would help push that beam requirement out, and require the BC be appropriate so the beam abreast of the turrets is sufficient.   

This has a nice beefy BC, but the beam overall is slightly less than the US Nevada, which had triple 14" in a single cradle, cramped turret.  However the contempary of this vessel would be the USS Tennessee class- laid down 1917, with triple single sleeved 14", and an improved TDS, and a 97.5 ft / 29.7m beam.

[Logi]

With a Cb of 0.686, it is much fatter than the Nevada at 0.617, to say, it's fatter than even the Pennsylvania (0.650), which carried triple 14"s. The Penn was a pretty fat ship, as from the top down drawings, had quite a bit of free space from gun outer and edge of the beam.

In other words, maybe a slightly less robust TDS system due to the increased triple 15" instead of triple 14" but the wider beam at the gun point due to higher Cb.

This has a nice beefy BC, but the beam overall is slightly less than the US Nevada, which had triple 14" in a single cradle, cramped turret.  However the contempary of this vessel would be the USS Tennessee class- laid down 1917, with triple single sleeved 14", and an improved TDS, and a 97.5 ft / 29.7m beam.