New French Battleships

[Ithekro]

Yeah, things go like normal, the "who's the bigger dragon is Asia?" factor will kick in again.

[maddox]

With Napoleon the Great in build, and another batch of the UKA turbines arriving, the team that gave us Greater Napoleon want to do an Encore

Alsace , French Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   26.497 t light; 27.932 t standard; 30.756 t normal; 33.015 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   590,55 ft / 590,55 ft x 104,99 ft x 27,56 ft (normal load)
   180,00 m / 180,00 m x 32,00 m  x 8,40 m

Armament:
      6 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1902 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      8 - 10,83" / 275 mm guns (4x2 guns), 634,55lbs / 287,83kg shells, 1899 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      10 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1901 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      10 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
      4 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm guns in single mounts, 5,65lbs / 2,56kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 14.066 lbs / 6.380 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,8" / 351 mm   383,86 ft / 117,00 m   11,91 ft / 3,63 m
   Ends:   6,90" / 175 mm   206,66 ft / 62,99 m   11,91 ft / 3,63 m
   Upper:   9,20" / 234 mm   383,86 ft / 117,00 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,15" / 29 mm   590,55 ft / 180,00 m   32,81 ft / 10,00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13,8" / 351 mm   9,20" / 234 mm      11,5" / 292 mm
   2nd:   11,5" / 292 mm   9,20" / 234 mm      9,20" / 234 mm
   3rd:   6,90" / 175 mm   1,57" / 40 mm      2,36" / 60 mm
   4th:   1,15" / 29 mm         -               -
   5th:   0,50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3,45" / 88 mm, Conning tower: 13,80" / 351 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 30.411 shp / 22.687 Kw = 20,00 kts
   Range 7.500nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5.083 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   1.160 - 1.509

Cost:
   £2,530 million / $10,120 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.655 tons, 5,4%
   Armour: 11.932 tons, 38,8%
      - Belts: 4.696 tons, 15,3%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 824 tons, 2,7%
      - Armament: 3.144 tons, 10,2%
      - Armour Deck: 2.976 tons, 9,7%
      - Conning Tower: 292 tons, 0,9%
   Machinery: 1.521 tons, 4,9%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 11.240 tons, 36,5%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.259 tons, 13,8%
   Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0,5%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     51.693 lbs / 23.448 Kg = 43,1 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 10,0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,17
   Metacentric height 7,3 ft / 2,2 m
   Roll period: 16,4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 73 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,46
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,46

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,630
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,63 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24,30 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      28,87 ft / 8,80 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   22,97 ft / 7,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      16,99 ft / 5,18 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,99 ft / 5,18 m
      - Stern:      16,99 ft / 5,18 m
      - Average freeboard:   19,56 ft / 5,96 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 71,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 140,7%
   Waterplane Area: 46.629 Square feet or 4.332 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 185 lbs/sq ft or 901 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,96
      - Longitudinal: 1,54
      - Overall: 1,01
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

The turbines are operated at a lower steam temperature than they are rated for, because the endurance and maintenance scedules are still in doubt. 

if this ship comes to be, 2 will be build.  Alsace and Gascogne.

[P3D]

Honestly I don't understand why the French are putting 275mm guns beside the 340mm ones. The logic for installing medium-caliber armament was to be able to punch through secondary armor that was thich enough to defeat 6" projectiles, while having a significantly higher rate of fire than main guns. The ROF of 275mm guns are not significantly different from 340mm ones. Higher ROF needs a 7-9" guns. 11" guns are neither fish nor fowl here - falling down between two saddles.

Nevermind that spotting will not allow the use of one of the main caliber guns until the range is established.

[Desertfox]

Its a French ship, it has to look ugly.

[Ithekro]

Tradition.

I suppose in theory the French want to be able to engage both Battleships and Armored Cruisers at the same time using the different caliber weapons.  Ships like Aki and the historical Dantons are from this period in time...The semi-dreadnoughts.

[maddox]

In lay out this proposal is just a Greater Napoleon with smaller secundaries. And the  keel problem eliminated.

But the possibility of building this is small...  I have other idea's

[P3D]

Danton had 240mm guns. A 275mm gun has the disadvantage of both lower ROF (compared to, say, a 240mm gun) and the lack of ability to penetrate main belt armor.
There's a reason that semidreadnoughts did not have guns larger than 10" - and usually 8-9.4" ones.

[maddox]

This monster any better then?

Lorraine, French Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   26.724 t light; 28.110 t standard; 30.756 t normal; 32.873 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   590,55 ft / 590,55 ft x 104,99 ft x 27,56 ft (normal load)
   180,00 m / 180,00 m x 32,00 m  x 8,40 m

Armament:
      8 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1902 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      8 - 7,68" / 195 mm guns (4x2 guns), 226,24lbs / 102,62kg shells, 1899 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      10 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83,72lbs / 37,98kg shells, 1901 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      16 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      4 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm guns in single mounts, 5,65lbs / 2,56kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 13.419 lbs / 6.087 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,8" / 351 mm   383,86 ft / 117,00 m   11,91 ft / 3,63 m
   Ends:   9,20" / 234 mm   206,66 ft / 62,99 m   11,91 ft / 3,63 m
   Upper:   9,20" / 234 mm   383,86 ft / 117,00 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,75" / 44 mm   590,55 ft / 180,00 m   32,81 ft / 10,00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13,8" / 351 mm   9,20" / 234 mm      11,5" / 292 mm
   2nd:   9,20" / 234 mm   9,20" / 234 mm      9,20" / 234 mm
   3rd:   6,90" / 175 mm   1,57" / 40 mm      2,36" / 60 mm
   4th:   1,15" / 29 mm         -               -
   5th:   0,50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3,45" / 88 mm, Conning tower: 14,80" / 376 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 30.411 shp / 22.687 Kw = 20,00 kts
   Range 7.000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4.763 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   1.160 - 1.509

Cost:
   £2,453 million / $9,814 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.554 tons, 5,1%
   Armour: 12.641 tons, 41,1%
      - Belts: 4.906 tons, 15,9%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1.255 tons, 4,1%
      - Armament: 3.192 tons, 10,4%
      - Armour Deck: 2.976 tons, 9,7%
      - Conning Tower: 313 tons, 1,0%
   Machinery: 1.521 tons, 4,9%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10.859 tons, 35,3%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.032 tons, 13,1%
   Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0,5%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     54.152 lbs / 24.563 Kg = 45,2 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 11,5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,18
   Metacentric height 7,4 ft / 2,2 m
   Roll period: 16,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,43
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,45

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,630
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,63 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24,30 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      28,87 ft / 8,80 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   22,97 ft / 7,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      16,99 ft / 5,18 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,99 ft / 5,18 m
      - Stern:      16,99 ft / 5,18 m
      - Average freeboard:   19,56 ft / 5,96 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 68,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 140,7%
   Waterplane Area: 46.629 Square feet or 4.332 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 178 lbs/sq ft or 870 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,96
      - Longitudinal: 1,48
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[P3D]

- have at least three 2x7.5" turrets on each side
- correct 140mm gun mounts to casemate, and increase their number to 12-16.
- I see no special need for the 57mm guns.

[maddox]

That would look like a real Danton.....

[P3D]

Not really. Two more turrets, larger guns, thicker armour.

[maddox]

I must say P³D, your suggestions didn't fall to deaf mens ears. So I present you, the latest variation on the old F class design....

Lorraine, French Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   27.950 t light; 29.371 t standard; 32.095 t normal; 34.275 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   590,55 ft / 590,55 ft x 109,91 ft x 27,56 ft (normal load)
   180,00 m / 180,00 m x 33,50 m  x 8,40 m

Armament:
      8 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1902 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      12 - 7,68" / 195 mm guns (6x2 guns), 226,24lbs / 102,62kg shells, 1899 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1901 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
     6 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      10 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      4 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm guns in single mounts, 5,65lbs / 2,56kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 14.906 lbs / 6.761 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 90

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,8" / 351 mm   383,00 ft / 116,74 m   11,00 ft / 3,35 m
   Ends:   9,20" / 234 mm   206,00 ft / 62,79 m   11,00 ft / 3,35 m
     1,55 ft / 0,47 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   9,20" / 234 mm   383,00 ft / 116,74 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,45" / 37 mm   590,00 ft / 179,83 m   32,00 ft / 9,75 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13,8" / 351 mm   9,20" / 234 mm      11,5" / 292 mm
   2nd:   9,20" / 234 mm   9,20" / 234 mm      9,20" / 234 mm
   3rd:   9,20" / 234 mm   1,50" / 38 mm      2,30" / 58 mm
   4th:   1,15" / 29 mm         -               -
   5th:   0,50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3,45" / 88 mm, Conning tower: 13,80" / 351 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 31.414 shp / 23.435 Kw = 20,00 kts
   Range 7.000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4.905 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   1.198 - 1.558

Cost:
   £2,645 million / $10,578 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.722 tons, 5,4%
   Armour: 13.006 tons, 40,5%
      - Belts: 4.638 tons, 14,4%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1.013 tons, 3,2%
      - Armament: 3.945 tons, 12,3%
      - Armour Deck: 3.110 tons, 9,7%
      - Conning Tower: 300 tons, 0,9%
   Machinery: 1.571 tons, 4,9%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 11.452 tons, 35,7%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.146 tons, 12,9%
   Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 0,6%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     55.257 lbs / 25.064 Kg = 46,1 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 11,3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,21
   Metacentric height 8,2 ft / 2,5 m
   Roll period: 16,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,37
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,43

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,628
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,37 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24,30 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      28,87 ft / 8,80 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   22,97 ft / 7,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      16,99 ft / 5,18 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,99 ft / 5,18 m
      - Stern:      16,99 ft / 5,18 m
      - Average freeboard:   19,56 ft / 5,96 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 70,3%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 142,3%
   Waterplane Area: 48.724 Square feet or 4.527 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 183 lbs/sq ft or 893 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,96
      - Longitudinal: 1,48
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I love it - so many powder rooms ... and I'm not talking 'bout the ladies' variety ....
Borys

[maddox]

Oh, it seems you like Agincourt too Borys.

You'll have to admit, even the shields of the 140mm guns are "sturdy" with their 9.2" and for the rest, try to reach one of the main powder rooms below the turrets.

Armor sceme on this ships is "extensive"

But your sentiment is heard, and you can rest assured this monster isn't cutting the cheese either.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
It is true that I will be able to blow here sky-high no sooner than in 1911-12, when I will have on strength a new generation of battleships.

Borys