New French Battleships

[Borys]

Ahoj!
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=727.msg13999#msg13999
Here you are.
Borys

[P3D]

Much better.

[maddox]

The battleships after the Marat, not GBB's of 35Ktons+, but more affordable ships of 25Ktons.

Alpine/Pyrénées, French Battleship laid down 1913 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   24.198 t light; 26.026 t standard; 28.753 t normal; 30.934 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557,74 ft / 554,46 ft x 95,14 ft x 30,18 ft (normal load)
   170,00 m / 169,00 m x 29,00 m  x 9,20 m

Armament:
      4 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.674,25lbs / 759,43kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      6 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1.674,25lbs / 759,43kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, all amidships
      14 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83,72lbs / 37,97kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 17.915 lbs / 8.126 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   360,40 ft / 109,85 m   11,91 ft / 3,63 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   194,04 ft / 59,14 m   11,91 ft / 3,63 m
   Upper:   4,00" / 102 mm   360,40 ft / 109,85 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   360,40 ft / 109,85 m   28,41 ft / 8,66 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      14,0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   14,0" / 356 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      14,0" / 356 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm

   - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14,00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 29.226 shp / 21.803 Kw = 20,00 kts
   Range 6.000nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4.908 tons (70% coal)

Complement:
   1.103 - 1.435

Cost:
   £3,193 million / $12,771 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2.239 tons, 7,8%
   Armour: 9.439 tons, 32,8%
      - Belts: 3.518 tons, 12,2%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 568 tons, 2,0%
      - Armament: 2.863 tons, 10,0%
      - Armour Deck: 2.206 tons, 7,7%
      - Conning Tower: 283 tons, 1,0%
   Machinery: 1.419 tons, 4,9%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10.701 tons, 37,2%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.555 tons, 15,8%
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1,4%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     30.705 lbs / 13.928 Kg = 18,3 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 5,0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 5,5 ft / 1,7 m
   Roll period: 17,0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,61
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,632
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,83 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,55 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26,25 ft / 8,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   14,76 ft / 4,50 m
      - Mid (50%):      14,76 ft / 4,50 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   13,78 ft / 4,20 m
      - Stern:      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   15,31 ft / 4,67 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 99,5%
   Waterplane Area: 39.748 Square feet or 3.693 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 94%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 202 lbs/sq ft or 987 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,95
      - Longitudinal: 1,54
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[The Rock Doctor]

Powerful, but I'd prefer something with more freeboard.

[maddox]

With more freeboard stability is ruined.

[The Rock Doctor]

With the freeboard you have - the mountain of a forecastle notwithstanding - your forward turrets may be quite wet.

Do you think there's room for five centreline, deck-level 15" turrets on a ship of that size?

[maddox]

5 turrets , don't think so , she's short, 170m oa, to fit in a type 2 dock.

And if I have to use a Type 3 dock to build her, I can do a 5x3 15" gunned vessel for 35 ktons, thanks to the low speed requirements of the Marine Nationale.

Paixhans, French GBB laid down 1913 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   34.666 t light; 37.370 t standard; 40.940 t normal; 43.797 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   662,73 ft / 656,17 ft x 111,55 ft x 29,53 ft (normal load)
   202,00 m / 200,00 m x 34,00 m  x 9,00 m

Armament:
      15 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (5x3 guns), 1.763,70lbs / 800,00kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
      16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 6 raised mounts - superfiring
      5 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 27.989 lbs / 12.696 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   430,00 ft / 131,06 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   200,00 ft / 60,96 m   12,30 ft / 3,75 m
     26,17 ft / 7,98 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   6,00" / 152 mm   405,18 ft / 123,50 m   9,00 ft / 2,74 m
     Main Belt covers 101% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   480,00 ft / 146,30 m   29,80 ft / 9,08 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      12,0" / 305 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm

   - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14,00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 35.567 shp / 26.533 Kw = 20,00 kts
   Range 6.000nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 6.427 tons (80% coal)

Complement:
   1.438 - 1.870

Cost:
   £4,626 million / $18,504 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3.313 tons, 8,1%
   Armour: 13.393 tons, 32,7%
      - Belts: 5.081 tons, 12,4%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 794 tons, 1,9%
      - Armament: 4.010 tons, 9,8%
      - Armour Deck: 3.149 tons, 7,7%
      - Conning Tower: 358 tons, 0,9%
   Machinery: 1.743 tons, 4,3%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 15.616 tons, 38,1%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6.275 tons, 15,3%
   Miscellaneous weights: 600 tons, 1,5%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     47.273 lbs / 21.442 Kg = 28,2 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 7,5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,11
   Metacentric height 7,2 ft / 2,2 m
   Roll period: 17,5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,67
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,22

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,663
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,88 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25,62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 40 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      27,89 ft / 8,50 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   17,49 ft / 5,33 m
      - Mid (50%):      17,49 ft / 5,33 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   17,49 ft / 5,33 m
      - Stern:      17,49 ft / 5,33 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,32 ft / 5,58 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94,2%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131,4%
   Waterplane Area: 56.741 Square feet or 5.271 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 93%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 216 lbs/sq ft or 1.053 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,98
      - Longitudinal: 1,26
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Korpen]

5 turrets , don't think so , she's short, 170m oa, to fit in a type 2 dock.

And if I have to use a Type 3 dock to build her, I can do a 5x3 15" gunned vessel for 35 ktons, thanks to the low speed requirements of the Marine Nationale.

Think one really needs a drawing of such a design, as I have some huge doubts about fitting in five 38cm gun turrets on 130m. After all each barbarette is 10-11m wide, and then just as much for the barrels. That is 80m, with some space for the turrets to rotate, 90-100m at least. That gives one only around 30m for funnel uptakes, superstructure and the deck mounted cassettes. Maybe possible, but I want to see it to believe it.

[Borys]

Length of British 5x2x13,5" battleships
Erin - 560
Orion - 580
KGV - 600
Iron Duke - 620 feet.
Canada - 660

Borys

[Sachmle]

Length of British 5x2x13,5" battleships
Erin - 560
Orion - 580
KGV - 600
Iron Duke - 620 feet.
Canada - 660

Borys

But those all has superfiring B and X turrets, France doesn't do superfiring on BBs.

[Korpen]

Length of British 5x2x13,5" battleships
Erin - 560
Orion - 580
KGV - 600
Iron Duke - 620 feet.
Canada - 660

Borys

Problem as I see it is not the length of the boat, but the length of the belt.

Accepting poor arcs, and no superstructure whatsoever (forget secondaries in anything but hull mounts), it seems it might be done.

The image is only accurate about the length of the main belt and size of superstructure and turrets.

[maddox]

Giving her 2 superfiring turrets screws up stability, seakeeping and increases weight with at least 2000 tons, light.

On the other hand, a broadside of 13000kg with good fire-arcs....

Paixhans, French GBB laid down 1913 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   36.780 t light; 39.579 t standard; 43.257 t normal; 46.199 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   695,54 ft / 688,98 ft x 114,83 ft x 30,18 ft (normal load)
   212,00 m / 210,00 m x 35,00 m  x 9,20 m

Armament:
      15 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (5x3 guns), 1.812,20lbs / 822,00kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
      16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 6 raised mounts - superfiring
      5 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 28.717 lbs / 13.026 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   447,83 ft / 136,50 m   12,67 ft / 3,86 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   241,12 ft / 73,49 m   12,67 ft / 3,86 m
   Upper:   6,00" / 152 mm   447,83 ft / 136,50 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   447,83 ft / 136,50 m   28,45 ft / 8,67 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      12,0" / 305 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm

   - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 13,00" / 330 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 36.048 shp / 26.892 Kw = 20,00 kts
   Range 6.000nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 6.620 tons (80% coal)

Complement:
   1.499 - 1.949

Cost:
   £4,710 million / $18,841 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3.313 tons, 7,7%
   Armour: 13.454 tons, 31,1%
      - Belts: 4.664 tons, 10,8%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 707 tons, 1,6%
      - Armament: 4.424 tons, 10,2%
      - Armour Deck: 3.314 tons, 7,7%
      - Conning Tower: 345 tons, 0,8%
   Machinery: 1.767 tons, 4,1%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 17.745 tons, 41,0%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6.477 tons, 15,0%
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1,2%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     54.126 lbs / 24.551 Kg = 32,3 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 8,5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 7,4 ft / 2,3 m
   Roll period: 17,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,71
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,634
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,25 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 38 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      27,89 ft / 8,50 m
      - Forecastle (15%):   19,03 ft / 5,80 m
      - Mid (50%):      19,03 ft / 5,80 m
      - Quarterdeck (10%):   19,03 ft / 5,80 m
      - Stern:      19,03 ft / 5,80 m
      - Average freeboard:   19,56 ft / 5,96 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88,8%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144,4%
   Waterplane Area: 59.721 Square feet or 5.548 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 231 lbs/sq ft or 1.127 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,97
      - Longitudinal: 1,28
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Borys]

Length of British 5x2x13,5" battleships
Erin - 560
Orion - 580
KGV - 600
Iron Duke - 620 feet.
Canada - 660

Borys

But those all has superfiring B and X turrets, France doesn't do superfiring on BBs.

Me bad - I forgot that.

As to stability 1,10, fireplatform 60%, seakeeping 1,21 - MO acceptable. I'd even try to sacrifice some seakeeping for stablity, which then I'd transform into fireplatform.
But like I say - the current result is IMO acceptable.

Borys

[maddox]

With the Baltic plans for a battleship with tripple turrets, Glorious france can't do anything else than trumph that design.

The GBB DeCreme is almost finished, and the slip free. So the successor of her, Paixhans, proudly presented.
Big change is the main guns, in tripple turrets And superfiring.
And the secundary experimental light cruiser based 140mm QF twin mount and hoist.

Paixhans, French GBB laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   38.123 t light; 40.618 t standard; 43.574 t normal; 45.938 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   721,78 ft / 715,22 ft x 123,69 ft x 28,22 ft (normal load)
   220,00 m / 218,00 m x 37,70 m  x 8,60 m

Armament:
      12 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (4x3 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      20 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (10x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 23.600 lbs / 10.705 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 122

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   420,00 ft / 128,02 m   12,86 ft / 3,92 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   290,00 ft / 88,39 m   12,86 ft / 3,92 m
     5,22 ft / 1,59 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   5,00" / 127 mm   460,00 ft / 140,21 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 90% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   511,81 ft / 156,00 m   27,99 ft / 8,53 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      14,0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   1,00" / 25 mm   1,00" / 25 mm            -
   4th:   0,50" / 13 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 60.815 shp / 45.368 Kw = 23,00 kts
   Range 7.000nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5.320 tons

Complement:
   1.507 - 1.960

Cost:
   £4,325 million / $17,301 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2.727 tons, 6,3%
   Armour: 13.746 tons, 31,5%
      - Belts: 4.808 tons, 11,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 795 tons, 1,8%
      - Armament: 4.195 tons, 9,6%
      - Armour Deck: 3.628 tons, 8,3%
      - Conning Tower: 320 tons, 0,7%
   Machinery: 2.425 tons, 5,6%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 18.624 tons, 42,7%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.451 tons, 12,5%
   Miscellaneous weights: 600 tons, 1,4%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     63.047 lbs / 28.597 Kg = 37,7 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 11,0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,11
   Metacentric height 8,4 ft / 2,6 m
   Roll period: 17,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,54
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,611
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,78 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,74 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      27,89 ft / 8,50 m
      - Forecastle (15%):   20,34 ft / 6,20 m
      - Mid (50%):      20,34 ft / 6,20 m
      - Quarterdeck (10%):   20,34 ft / 6,20 m
      - Stern:      20,34 ft / 6,20 m
      - Average freeboard:   20,79 ft / 6,34 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81,0%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 168,1%
   Waterplane Area: 65.369 Square feet or 6.073 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 227 lbs/sq ft or 1.110 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,97
      - Longitudinal: 1,24
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

250tons FC
100 tons Ears
150 tons Crew Comfort
100 tons Flag Bridge/large Marconi

[Tanthalas]

I LIKE IT