New Ships for the Great Lakes

[Desertfox]

The Swiss Lake Fleet as of 1906:

1 Geneva class CB
1 Black Prince class PC
2 Murray class GBs
2 Monitors
10 Torpedo boats
1 Patrol Boat

planned for 1906 are:

1 Geneva class CB
1 POW class PC
1 Lake Eyre class Minelayer
2 Kangaroo class DDs

[Desertfox]

HMAS Prince of Wales, New Switzerland  Great Lakes Cruiser laid down 1904 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   2,563 t light; 2,720 t standard; 3,113 t normal; 3,428 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   390.00 ft / 390.00 ft x 41.00 ft x 14.50 ft (normal load)
   118.87 m / 118.87 m x 12.50 m  x 4.42 m

Armament:
      2 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns in single mounts, 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 1904 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1904 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      8 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1904 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1904 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 1,028 lbs / 466 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.00" / 76 mm   300.00 ft / 91.44 m   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 118 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3.00" / 76 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 10,845 shp / 8,091 Kw = 22.00 kts
   Range 2,500nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 709 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   207 - 270

Cost:
   £0.274 million / $1.094 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 128 tons, 4.1 %
   Armour: 587 tons, 18.9 %
      - Belts: 329 tons, 10.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 52 tons, 1.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 192 tons, 6.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 14 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 542 tons, 17.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,195 tons, 38.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 551 tons, 17.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 110 tons, 3.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     4,278 lbs / 1,941 Kg = 16.7 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 1.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.28
   Metacentric height 2.0 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 12.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.58
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.63

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.470
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.51 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.75 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 43
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Mid (50 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Stern:      11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Average freeboard:   13.51 ft / 4.12 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 110.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 10,373 Square feet or 964 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 70 lbs/sq ft or 344 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.60
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Desertfox]

HMAS Lake Eyre, New Switzerland  Great Lakes Minelayer laid down 1906

Displacement:
   2,202 t light; 2,296 t standard; 2,471 t normal; 2,610 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   370.00 ft / 370.00 ft x 41.00 ft x 11.40 ft (normal load)
   112.78 m / 112.78 m x 12.50 m  x 3.47 m

Armament:
      4 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (2x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1905 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, evenly spread
      4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1905 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      4 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1905 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 501 lbs / 227 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.00" / 76 mm   270.00 ft / 82.30 m   7.00 ft / 2.13 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 112 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3.00" / 76 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 3,735 ihp / 2,787 Kw = 17.00 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 315 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   174 - 227

Cost:
   £0.206 million / $0.822 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 63 tons, 2.5 %
   Armour: 460 tons, 18.6 %
      - Belts: 234 tons, 9.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 27 tons, 1.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 187 tons, 7.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 12 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 541 tons, 21.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 918 tons, 37.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 268 tons, 10.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 220 tons, 8.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     2,949 lbs / 1,338 Kg = 27.3 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.25
   Metacentric height 2.0 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 12.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.30
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.36

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.500
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.02 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.24 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 35 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Mid (50 %):      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Stern:      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Average freeboard:   10.56 ft / 3.22 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 110.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 10,107 Square feet or 939 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 63 lbs/sq ft or 307 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.99
      - Longitudinal: 1.04
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Desertfox]

HMAS Kangaroo/Koala, New Switzerland Great Lakes Destroyer laid down 1905 (Engine 1908)

Displacement:
   440 t light; 465 t standard; 629 t normal; 761 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   250.00 ft / 250.00 ft x 25.00 ft x 7.50 ft (normal load)
   76.20 m / 76.20 m x 7.62 m  x 2.29 m

Armament:
      2 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1905 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
      4 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1905 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1905 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 140 lbs / 64 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 4,731 shp / 3,529 Kw = 22.00 kts
   Range 2,500nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 296 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   62 - 81

Cost:
   £0.064 million / $0.257 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 18 tons, 2.8 %
   Armour: 6 tons, 0.9 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 6 tons, 0.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 244 tons, 38.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 158 tons, 25.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 189 tons, 30.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 15 tons, 2.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     302 lbs / 137 Kg = 4.8 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.76
   Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 8.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.22
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.73

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.470
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15.81 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 41
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Mid (50 %):      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Stern:      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Average freeboard:   10.40 ft / 3.17 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 149.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 84.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 4,054 Square feet or 377 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 92 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 21 lbs/sq ft or 104 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.51
      - Longitudinal: 1.44
      - Overall: 0.57
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Desertfox]

HMAS Geneva, New Switzerland  Great Lakes Battleship laid down 1906

Displacement:
   4,640 t light; 4,939 t standard; 5,268 t normal; 5,532 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   390.00 ft / 390.00 ft x 48.00 ft x 19.70 ft (normal load)
   118.87 m / 118.87 m x 14.63 m  x 6.00 m

Armament:
      4 - 10.00" / 254 mm guns (2x2 guns), 500.00lbs / 226.80kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (2x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      8 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 2,388 lbs / 1,083 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 140

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   250.00 ft / 76.20 m   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
   Ends:   3.00" / 76 mm   140.00 ft / 42.67 m   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
     Main Belt covers 99 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   3.00" / 76 mm      5.00" / 127 mm
   2nd:   3.00" / 76 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 5,817 ihp / 4,339 Kw = 17.00 kts
   Range 3,700nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 593 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   308 - 401

Cost:
   £0.530 million / $2.118 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 299 tons, 5.7 %
   Armour: 1,459 tons, 27.7 %
      - Belts: 810 tons, 15.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 271 tons, 5.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 346 tons, 6.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 33 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 831 tons, 15.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,001 tons, 38.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 628 tons, 11.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     5,073 lbs / 2,301 Kg = 10.1 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
   Metacentric height 2.1 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 13.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.78
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.500
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.13 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.75 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 36 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Mid (50 %):      11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Stern:      11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.48 ft / 3.50 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 84.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 12,473 Square feet or 1,159 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 102 lbs/sq ft or 499 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.59
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[The Rock Doctor]

Not that I have any objection to Foxy spending considerable amounts of money on land-locked warships, but...

1)  How much infrastructure is actually present on these interior lakes?

2)  How big are the lakes?

3)  Is the stuff around the lakes worth this much build-up?

I'd suggest that the single most useful function the lakes provide is as a transportation route supporting a land campaign - in which case, both parties ought to be investing in some transport capacity...

[Ithekro]

Well the Lakes...what appears to be six of them, are the size of the Great Lakes plus the Sea of Rhun (based on the map models that are used).  There also appears to be a large river to the Ocean on the Western side of the Lakes (based I suppose on the St. Lawrence Seaway or perhaps just a great river.)

As for transport capacity, that might be a good idea.

I'm assuming a large amount fo commerse on these lakes for some reason.  Trade in what I can't say at present.  It the muslims have control of the river/seaway, they control trade into the lakes from the Oceans.

[Desertfox]

1. Haven't figured it out, but no Slips/Docks over Type 1

2. Same size and shape as the Great Lakes (easy to refer too) NS has US side, Farijistan Canadian side. (Lake Michigan = Lake Geneva)

3. Maybe not but they form a most important part of the boundary, to the south is desert, to the north probably mountains and jungle.

[Ithekro]

The two round ships of course are strange by design...they'd fit a Type 1 slip/dock...on length, but they are as wide as they are long...so it's a puzzlement.  Since there are only two, I assume there is but one dock for them.  Meaning only one could be serviced at a time, and only one could be scrapped at a time.  It might be wiser to have two to be sure not to short change the fleet.

Thoughts?

Also, Rocky, your knowledge of the Lakes might be better than mine (being a westerner myself), any ideas as to what would be suited for forts in that type of region in this age?  I know the border hasn't been fotified for amost 200 years now, but there are remains of the old fort system between the United States and Canada.

[The Rock Doctor]

There may be some trade, but consider that the interior of the continent is likely the least populated and developed.

Slips and drydocks wide enough to accomodate frisbee ships might be more expensive than your average slip or drydock of the same length.

I'm not overly familiar with the lake fortifications myself.  I lived briefly in Kingston, Ontario, which was a significant British port in the nineteenth century, and they built a fort and several batteries ("Martello Towers") there.  The Martello Towers were small and cheap, but considerably generally obsolete against modern rifled guns.

I think the major cities and ports were the only places to be fortified - everything else was less likely to be a target and better defended with the mobile fleet.

[Ithekro]

Well considering Swiss methods...and the history involved, the eastern part of the lakes was also once claimed by the Caliphate but perhaps loaned to France, but then the French left and the Swiss moved in...then the Caliphate fell, leaving Thrawn to govern these lands.  However the Caliphate claim was reportedly old (1500s maybe), with French settlements in the 1700-1800s.  Again the muslims would have controlled the trade, but perhaps the French has something up their sleeve and moved to the interior only to have the Swiss come from the East, probably slowly pushing the French out?   Brandenburg is involved here someplace.