Dreadnaughts

[The Rock Doctor]

Well, just specify max guns and single or twin turrets; if one says 3x2 or 4x2, you're technically ruling out something with single gun turrets.

[Tanthalas]

I hate the thought, because it pushes tech faster than I want to see it moving (and this from the damn the rules guy) but I do agree with Rock, Proly drop the T2 part to allow for Singles so somthing more like this

1900 - no more than 6 guns per broadside
1902 - no more than 8 guns per broadside
1904 - no more than 10 guns per broadside
none of these are allowed to have Super Fireing turrets

note I didnt include any limitation of turret numbers... if you want 6 single turrets per broadside go for it as far as im concernd.

I think that moving up the year the dreadnaught tech itself, at least as far as allowing more turrets, should be advanced by a year at this point.  Everyone is, at least theoretically, looking for ways to increase their main guns.  Adding a 4th turret after adding a third turret only makes sense. 

Perhaps...
1900 - 3T2 - 6 main guns
1902 - 4T2 - 8 main guns
1904 - 5T2 - 10 main guns
No superfiring turrets

makes sense to me.

[Jefgte]

Well, just specify max guns and single or twin turrets; if one says 3x2 or 4x2, you're technically ruling out something with single gun turrets.

You are free to the turrets distribution.
for ex:
1902: 8 main guns
2T2+4T1 or 3T2+2T1 or 8T1 ...
always no superfiring.

[Tanthalas]

thats exactly what I just said (I think anyway... I am kinda drunk so understanding what I read is not real high on the chart atm) just limit what the broadside can be, with the understanding that once you unlock the 1905 BB tech (I think its 1905 isnt it) you can plop as many guns on a ship as your heart may desire.

Well, just specify max guns and single or twin turrets; if one says 3x2 or 4x2, you're technically ruling out something with single gun turrets.

You are free to the turrets distribution.
for ex:
1902: 8 main guns
2T2+4T1 or 3T2+2T1 or 8T1 ...
always no superfiring.

[snip]

Original rules

1890: Mixed main armament or AQY with double turrets+casemates
1904: All-big-gun ship with wing turrets, superfiring turrets (restricted axial firing arcs), improved turret hydraulics, Torpedo Bulkheads

So what I am seeing is a change to something like this. It gives us a step between pre-dreads and dreads that some may take advantage of (seven is a lucky number :P)

1890: Mixed main battery with any arrangement not exceeding 4 big guns OR AQY all-big-gun with double turrets+casemates. Stacked turrets (in the style of USS Kersarge).
1901: Arrangements of all-big-gun main battery that allow for no more then seven guns on a broadside. Superfiring medium main guns (restricted axial firing arcs).
1904: All-big-gun ships with unrestricted number of guns on a broadside, superfiring main gun turrets (restricted axial firing arcs), improved turret hydraulics, Torpedo Bulkheads.
Secondaries are 4-7" guns. 8-10" medium-caliber guns are not secondaries, but medium-caliber main guns

Thoughts?

[Delta Force]

I'd say just put a significant RoF limiter on big guns. You can have that semi-dread, but without good FC, while you miss with your big gun, the other guy will be shredding your ship with his significantly bigger secondaries, which can fire much faster than the big guns.

If people want to go and make early dreadnoughts there should be something to prevent them from being as effective as dreadnoughts designed with modern dreadnought technologies from the start. If we allow early dreadnoughts at all they should never be able to reach the full strength of a true dreadnought. Personally, I think the best way to prevent a dreadnought race right out of the gate is to just prohibit them until around 1905. I would also prohibit anything like the Satsuma from being laid down until a few years before the year dreadnoughts are first allowed, as otherwise it risks becoming the default battleship configuration.

[Tanthalas]

I would think that it should be an either or thing still though as far as batteries (you may have writen it that way and im failing to understand it),  if you want MMB no more than 4 "main" guns... tis the law of the land so sayeth teh mods.

as to the rest, the one year spread is a bit tight isnt it... I would rather see a progressional development like Jef and I threw out so how about a 1900 tech a 1902 tech and then the 1904 tech, making the tree look somthing like this?

1890: Mixed main battery with any arrangement not exceeding 4 big guns OR AQY all-big-gun with double turrets+casemates. Stacked turrets (in the style of USS Kersarge)
1900: Arrangements of all-big-gun main battery that allow for no more then six guns per broadside. Superfiring secondary main guns (restricted axial firing arcs)
1902:  All-big-gun ship with cross deck capable wing turrets, no more than 8 guns per broadside
1904: Superfiring turrets (restricted axial firing arcs), improved turret hydraulics
1906: Superfiring turrets (unrestricted firing arcs), triple turrets, Torpedo Bulkheads

[snip]

I think any such tech would need to be in 1901, just for the sake of finishing up 1900. Having both a 1900 and 1902 tech is a bit to crowded, while a single 1901 tech fits nicely within the existing structure IMO.

[Tanthalas]

and I supose you would also argue that nothing like the OTL Regina Elenas should be layed down? oh wait I already built 6 of them...

To be perfectly honest what I would like to see from ANYONE is the why they are building like they are.  Most of the people building AQY ships dont realise what a horible disadvantage they are at at this point (I did and still intended to build them for personal reasons untill I realised everyone else was) ofcourse none of the people building conventional ships are pointing out their logic for it either (outside Nobody *claps and chears for him*).

a 1900 tech is one we all have though from the outset (and I like the symetry of a tech every 2 years) making the tech 1901 just forces us all to continue arguing till 1903 anyway instead of showing some damn imagination and doing somthing DIFERENT... as is most everyone (excepting you, Nobody, Delta and a few others) layed down AQY/ABY/AXY ships in H1 1900 *note* im guilty of that even if I decide my BBs are conventional layouts as I have the aby ACs under construction (and a 6 gun AC atleast kinda makes sence)

I'd say just put a significant RoF limiter on big guns. You can have that semi-dread, but without good FC, while you miss with your big gun, the other guy will be shredding your ship with his significantly bigger secondaries, which can fire much faster than the big guns.

If people want to go and make early dreadnoughts there should be something to prevent them from being as effective as dreadnoughts designed with modern dreadnought technologies from the start. If we allow early dreadnoughts at all they should never be able to reach the full strength of a true dreadnought. Personally, I think the best way to prevent a dreadnought race right out of the gate is to just prohibit them until around 1905. I would also prohibit anything like the Satsuma from being laid down until a few years before the year dreadnoughts are first allowed, as otherwise it risks becoming the default battleship configuration.

[Desertfox]

How about a completely different suggestion. Make the restriction not the number of guns, but the weight of the broadside, and allow any configuration. So yeah you can build that dreadnought you wanted but its gotta have 10x10" guns, while your neighbor is building a pre-dread with 4x12" + 8x8" guns and your other neighbor went crazy with 4x16" guns. Allows more variety while keeping the playing field level.

[snip]

its interesting, but more work on the part of both the designers and community when it comes to rule compliance. Seeing as how heavyer guns are not really allowed until later, it does not make much difference. A good suggestion tho.

[Tanthalas]

Not realy DF (even if that is a fairly good sudjestion) more goes into who would win and who would loose a battle than the size/number of guns (although that will dictate the most important factor), Rate of Fire is HUGE and 12" guns arnt substantialy faster in our period than 13" guns... a ship armed with 6X12" without centeralized FC is going to get smacked around by a ship throwing a 4X12" and 4X8" broadside (the ROF diferance between the 8" and 12" guns is SUBSTANTIAL).  Personaly I intended to build one class of AQY BBs to satisfy my personal obsession with them then revert to building MMB ships, and use the AQY experiment as my justification for holding off on dreadnaughts... However now im rethinking my storyline and figuring out where to go (since everyone else is building 6 gun ships)

[Delta Force]

One of the reasons why many nations were hesitant to build dreadnoughts was because they required the same amount of 12 inch guns as several pre-dreadnoughts. Perhaps we could allow players to build whatever they want, but limit the number of big guns (11 inch and larger) that can be built. Perhaps the limit can be equal to our industrial capacity points, but only one per year. So, that means that Russia would be able to construct 19 big guns per year, the United Kingdom could build 81, etc. Nations can buy and sell capacity from each other, so Russia could purchase 12 inch guns from the United Kingdom (or another nation) to supplement domestic production if it has a larger building program going on. So, Russia could build almost five pre-dreadnoughts with four 12 inch guns each (importing one), three with AQY layout, and around two with dreadnought type designs. Technologies could be introduced to increase big gun production, so around 1905 you could have something to increase the number of guns you can build. Larger guns could also use more "big gun points", so you could produce several 11 inch guns or a few 16 inch guns.

[snip]

far to complex of a idea, but well thought out and grounded in real world problems.

[KWorld]

I'm not seeing the "too complex" part, really, it's making use of the BP concept we already have.  Maybe it could be simplified by simply saying "No more than X% of BP can be produced as big guns per half", so we don't have to track production over the year, and that X% could be increased by investing.


And, since folks are looking for reasonings, I suppose I'll have to write up the USN's design reasoning as it's evolved from the New Navy (1890) to current.