Post Startup Ships of the Regia Marina Italiana (1900-19XX)

[snip]

For refference, here is the ship Im toying with.

London, United Kingdom First Class Battleship laid down 1901 (Engine 1900)

Displacement:
   15,000 t light; 15,731 t standard; 17,064 t normal; 18,130 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (429.00 ft / 425.00 ft) x 78.00 ft x (27.00 / 28.45 ft)
   (130.76 m / 129.54 m) x 23.77 m  x (8.23 / 8.67 m)

Armament:
      4 - 12.00" / 305 mm 40.0 cal guns - 850.00lbs / 385.55kg shells, 90 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 9.20" / 234 mm 45.0 cal guns - 380.01lbs / 172.37kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
      10 - 6.00" / 152 mm 45.0 cal guns - 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 175 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1900 Model
     10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      10 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      14 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 45.0 cal guns - 12.50lbs / 5.67kg shells, 300 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
     5 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      5 raised mounts
     2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
      2 raised mounts
      14 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm 40.0 cal guns - 3.00lbs / 1.36kg shells, 400 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
     14 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 6,137 lbs / 2,784 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.0" / 279 mm   276.25 ft / 84.20 m   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   148.73 ft / 45.33 m   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   276.25 ft / 84.20 m   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      12.0" / 305 mm
   2nd:   9.00" / 229 mm   5.00" / 127 mm      4.00" / 102 mm
   3rd:   5.00" / 127 mm   2.00" / 51 mm      2.00" / 51 mm

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 4.00" / 102 mm
   Forecastle: 2.00" / 51 mm  Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 13.00" / 330 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 18,000 ihp / 13,428 Kw = 18.69 kts
   Range 7,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,399 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   746 - 970

Cost:
   £1.404 million / $5.615 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,074 tons, 6.3 %
      - Guns: 1,074 tons, 6.3 %
   Armour: 6,291 tons, 36.9 %
      - Belts: 3,234 tons, 19.0 %
      - Armament: 1,198 tons, 7.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,673 tons, 9.8 %
      - Conning Tower: 186 tons, 1.1 %
   Machinery: 2,813 tons, 16.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,597 tons, 26.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,064 tons, 12.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 225 tons, 1.3 %
      - Hull below water: 25 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 200 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     22,652 lbs / 10,275 Kg = 26.2 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.36
   Metacentric height 5.9 ft / 1.8 m
   Roll period: 13.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.47
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.68

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.667 / 0.673
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.45 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20.62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -5.00 ft / -1.52 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   22.00 %,  21.00 ft / 6.40 m,  20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  20.00 ft / 6.10 m,  19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Aft deck:   26.00 %,  19.00 ft / 5.79 m,  19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Quarter deck:   22.00 %,  19.00 ft / 5.79 m,  19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Average freeboard:      19.46 ft / 5.93 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 126.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 25,798 Square feet or 2,397 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 136 lbs/sq ft or 663 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.91
      - Longitudinal: 2.48
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

A modification of the Formidable's design, the London class featured one large change. Shipping the same armament, the most prominent change was to the 9.2" guns. Now mounted in the state-of-the-art En-Echlon in two twin turrets as opposed to the four singles of the Formidable, it gave the London's a 18% heavyer theoretical broadside by weight of shell. The sacrifice for this was the shifting of all the 6" guns into upper deck casemates, which gain an additional inch of armor. Other then these changes, the London's are esentialy a repeat Formidable.

Names: London, Cardif, Dublin, Edinburgh

Note: 9.2" turrets are mounted en-echlon.
Note: All side mounted and two centerline 12lb guns are on ether 12" or 9.2" turret roofs. Remaining centerline mounts located at extreem ends of the superstructure.
Note: Armored Decks are as folows. Main deck is 2" thick over the citadel tapering to 1" over the ends. Upper and lower armored decks are each 1" thick over the citadel and taper to .5" over the ends.

since they are still "main guns", that is why I am posting for comment. Sorry for thread hyjack

[KWorld]

Contrary to the notes, the 6" battery is in hull casemates.  I'm not sure I'd consider 5 6" guns per side sufficient, as well.

[snip]

Upper deck=top deck of the hull=hull casemates. the 6" guns are backed up by a large number of 3" guns as well, so adequate in my eyes for ships that will never be without escort.

[Tanthalas]

the way you have done it is legal I can say that without even considering it... Course the way you have done it was also my justification for the wing turrets being legal (if not within the exact spirit of the rules).  the fact that your 9.2" twins are capable of cross deck fire (didnt there used to be a rule about cross deck fire) and we have examples of "wing turrets" as far back as USS Texas and USS Maine (which was more or less where I got the idea from)

[Jefgte]

1890: Mixed main armament or AQY with double turrets+casemates
1904: All-big-gun ship with wing turrets, superfiring turrets (restricted axial firing arcs), improved turret hydraulics, Torpedo Bulkheads

1890-1904 = AQY turrets  & semi Dreadnought 3 main turrets max. + secondary in casemates...
1904 = Dreadnought 4 main turrets max. (perhaps 5 turrets ? )
---

Tan; "AQY" in the rules mean 3 main turrets, you can't have 4 main turrets.
By extension of this rule, that mean too "6 main guns"
I think that we could accept variations.
2T2x12"+2T1x12" or 6T1x12"...
The max is always 6 main guns.

Jef

[Tanthalas]

Yeah as was already pointed out to me... I will be a nice little no imagination Zombie, since thats what the rules dictate, and its aparently what everyone else wants... ill just retread my REs AGAIN and im sure you will all be happy with that.

Sorry to bite your head off but yes im very very pissy about this topic still (mostly because I had 15 pages of Copy written about the proposal that got turned into scrap electrons).

1890: Mixed main armament or AQY with double turrets+casemates
1904: All-big-gun ship with wing turrets, superfiring turrets (restricted axial firing arcs), improved turret hydraulics, Torpedo Bulkheads

1890-1904 = AQY turrets  & semi Dreadnought 3 main turrets max. + secondary in casemates...
1904 = Dreadnought 4 main turrets max. (perhaps 5 turrets ? )
---

Tan; "AQY" in the rules mean 3 main turrets, you can't have 4 main turrets.
By extension of this rule, that mean too "6 main guns"
I think that we could accept variation.
2T2x12"+2T1x12" or 6T1x12"...
The max is always 6 main guns.

Jef

[Tanthalas]

and yet another ship im sure everyone will scream is Ilegal...

Emilia-Romagna, Italia Battleship laid down 1900

Displacement:
   13,500 t light; 14,045 t standard; 15,046 t normal; 15,847 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (474.00 ft / 474.00 ft) x 73.00 ft x (27.60 / 28.76 ft)
   (144.48 m / 144.48 m) x 22.25 m  x (8.41 / 8.77 m)

Armament:
      6 - 11.00" / 279 mm 45.0 cal guns - 665.99lbs / 302.09kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
     1 x Twin mount on centreline, forward deck centre
      1 raised mount
     2 x Twin mounts on sides, aft deck centre
      8 - 4.70" / 119 mm 45.0 cal guns - 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1900 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 - 4.70" / 119 mm 45.0 cal guns - 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 4,796 lbs / 2,175 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.0" / 279 mm   308.00 ft / 93.88 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   166.00 ft / 50.60 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Upper:   5.00" / 127 mm   308.00 ft / 93.88 m   6.00 ft / 1.83 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
   Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm  Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 11.00" / 279 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 22,000 ihp / 16,412 Kw = 20.57 kts
   Range 5,565nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,802 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   679 - 883

Cost:
   £1.370 million / $5.480 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 879 tons, 5.8 %
      - Guns: 879 tons, 5.8 %
   Armour: 4,572 tons, 30.4 %
      - Belts: 2,532 tons, 16.8 %
      - Armament: 712 tons, 4.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,183 tons, 7.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 144 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 3,438 tons, 22.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,247 tons, 28.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,546 tons, 10.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 365 tons, 2.4 %
      - On freeboard deck: 365 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     13,748 lbs / 6,236 Kg = 20.7 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
   Metacentric height 4.2 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 15.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 76 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.41

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.551 / 0.557
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.49 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.77 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   19.00 %,  24.00 ft / 7.32 m,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m,  14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  14.00 ft / 4.27 m,  15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Quarter deck:   16.00 %,  15.00 ft / 4.57 m,  15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Average freeboard:      15.62 ft / 4.76 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 99.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 24,180 Square feet or 2,246 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 129 lbs/sq ft or 630 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.79
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

*Edit to fix an issue with the secondaries*

[snip]

Can you elaborate on the main battery layout a bit more. confused as to how it looks.

[Tanthalas]

Yeah looking at that I have to say how spring sharp put it isnt exactly clear is it... basicly the layout would have a pair of enechelon turrets(I think thats the term anyway) aft, and one centerline turret foreward.  I was picturing it as AXY (but like I said even im not sure it would be legal although I do kind of like it =P)

Can you elaborate on the main battery layout a bit more. confused as to how it looks.

[snip]

I would think it looks more like AYY, a reverse Ekatrina II if you will, just going from the report layout. I have mixed feeling about this design.

[Darman]

I have mixed feeling about this design.

From a rules perspective?  or from an aesthetics perspectives?  or from a sheer "it looks odd" perspective?  Cuz i think it looks odder than heck

[snip]

from a rules and a practicality standpoint. Rules-wise, its back into the grey area of wing turrets that do not break the "three turret" part of AQY. Just rather avoid that foggy ground again. Practicality wise, having en-echelon turrets in that area of the hull is going to play holy hell with the shaft runs. Im not even sure it could be done, even with very good gearing which we don't have and wont until this layout would be horably obsolete.

[Tanthalas]

oh it would look odd as hell... but hypotheticly it would work, spring sharp shows the guns all along the sides on the aft half of the ship, where the other options locate them more or less directly acrossed from each other (as best I can inturpuet).  Now for a slight bit of Honesty... I can find examples of guns located like my aft pair of twins before our period, and after our curent period but nothing in our curent period (course im starting to think all the period ships were designd in England the US or Germany)

as to the fogy layout I agree, but the one I came up with that wouldnt have had layout problems was found to be noncompliant with the rules... if I use a Q turret its siting more or less Inside the engines, if I use a B turret its siting more or less where the Boilers have to be (this was why I came up with the idea for a wing turret on each beam in the first place) Honestly I cant come up with a good answer to get a 6 gun broadside... :(

I have mixed feeling about this design.

From a rules perspective?  or from an aesthetics perspectives?  or from a sheer "it looks odd" perspective?  Cuz i think it looks odder than heck

[snip]

well, the answer is the make the ship longer by about the lengh needed for a "traditional" pre-dread. Its going to be bigger because of that, but its a question of doctrine as to how worth it that sacrifice is.

[Tanthalas]

Another option but tbh I realy dont like it... the secondaries would have to be capable of cross deck fire, and like I said I am not to fond of it.

Lombardia, Italia Battleship laid down 1900

Displacement:
   13,500 t light; 14,070 t standard; 15,009 t normal; 15,760 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (474.00 ft / 474.00 ft) x 73.00 ft x (27.60 / 28.69 ft)
   (144.48 m / 144.48 m) x 22.25 m  x (8.41 / 8.74 m)

Armament:
      4 - 11.00" / 279 mm 45.0 cal guns - 666.00lbs / 302.09kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 9.20" / 234 mm 45.0 cal guns - 380.00lbs / 172.37kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
     1 x Twin mount on sides, aft deck forward
     1 x Twin mount on sides, forward deck aft
      8 - 4.70" / 119 mm 45.0 cal guns - 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1900 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 - 4.70" / 119 mm 40.0 cal guns - 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 4,984 lbs / 2,261 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   322.00 ft / 98.15 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   152.00 ft / 46.33 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   322.00 ft / 98.15 m   7.00 ft / 2.13 m
     Main Belt covers 105 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   8.00" / 203 mm   3.00" / 76 mm      6.00" / 152 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
   Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm  Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 11.00" / 279 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 21,898 ihp / 16,336 Kw = 20.56 kts
   Range 5,200nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,690 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   677 - 881

Cost:
   £1.386 million / $5.545 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 973 tons, 6.5 %
      - Guns: 973 tons, 6.5 %
   Armour: 4,767 tons, 31.8 %
      - Belts: 2,740 tons, 18.3 %
      - Armament: 725 tons, 4.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,158 tons, 7.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 144 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 3,422 tons, 22.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,219 tons, 28.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,509 tons, 10.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 119 tons, 0.8 %
      - On freeboard deck: 119 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     14,461 lbs / 6,559 Kg = 21.7 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.26
   Metacentric height 4.8 ft / 1.4 m
   Roll period: 14.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 76 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.57

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / 0.556
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.49 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.77 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   19.00 %,  24.00 ft / 7.32 m,  21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  21.00 ft / 6.40 m,  14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Aft deck:   32.00 %,  14.00 ft / 4.27 m,  15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Quarter deck:   19.00 %,  15.00 ft / 4.57 m,  15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Average freeboard:      16.96 ft / 5.17 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 108.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 24,149 Square feet or 2,244 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 128 lbs/sq ft or 627 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 1.95
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather