Ships of the Imperial Russian Navy: 1900

[Nobody]

So what about the issue of engine type? Are reciprocating engines more demanding of maintenance than turbines or are the maintenance issues and loss of speed associated with reciprocating engines simply due to the burning of coal instead of oil? Would an oil burning reciprocating engine be more reliable?

If you want to build a ship that can roam around the world almost indefinitely, that should be one with an reciprocating engine until you switch to diesels in the 1930s or later. Any more or less skilled mechanic can build or repair a steam engine, but if you have a turbine you're screwed without a special factory (see the end SMS Dresden).
A turbine might be simpler in construction, but you can't just repair them without some serious equipment.

Coal can be quite troublesome in itself. Every couple hours at most, you literately have to throw the fire out and clean them from the inside. It's actually the same with oil fireing, but all you have to do to clean them is to let them suck some sand.

[Delta Force]

I noticed a slight design flaw on the Minsk class armored cruiser in that a foot of the hull is unarmored. I'm not sure how that happened, but the difference is small enough that it has no major effect on the design once implemented. Here is the Minskv3, which differs from the v2 in having that extra foot of armored area:

Minskv3, Russia Armored Cruiser laid down 1900

Displacement:
   13,300 t light; 13,918 t standard; 15,391 t normal; 16,569 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (555.00 ft / 555.00 ft) x 70.50 ft x (25.00 / 26.51 ft)
   (169.16 m / 169.16 m) x 21.49 m  x (7.62 / 8.08 m)

Armament:
      6 - 10.00" / 254 mm 45.0 cal guns - 500.01lbs / 226.80kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
     3 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
      6 - 6.00" / 152 mm 45.0 cal guns - 89.99lbs / 40.82kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1900 Model
     3 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
      3 raised mounts
      8 - 6.00" / 152 mm 45.0 cal guns - 89.99lbs / 40.82kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1900 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      12 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 50.0 cal guns - 11.99lbs / 5.44kg shells, 300 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      12 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 4,404 lbs / 1,998 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6.00" / 152 mm   435.00 ft / 132.59 m   13.00 ft / 3.96 m
   Ends:   3.00" / 76 mm   120.00 ft / 36.58 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
   Upper:   3.00" / 76 mm   300.00 ft / 91.44 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 121 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   6.00" / 152 mm   3.00" / 76 mm      6.00" / 152 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm   3.00" / 76 mm            -
   3rd:   3.00" / 76 mm         -         3.00" / 76 mm

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1.50" / 38 mm
   Forecastle: 1.50" / 38 mm  Quarter deck: 1.50" / 38 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 10.00" / 254 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 29,400 ihp / 21,932 Kw = 22.47 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,651 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   690 - 898

Cost:
   £1.504 million / $6.016 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 996 tons, 6.5 %
      - Guns: 996 tons, 6.5 %
   Armour: 3,252 tons, 21.1 %
      - Belts: 1,801 tons, 11.7 %
      - Armament: 553 tons, 3.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 765 tons, 5.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 133 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 4,594 tons, 29.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,421 tons, 28.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,091 tons, 13.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 37 tons, 0.2 %
      - Hull below water: 12 tons
      - Above deck: 25 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     11,181 lbs / 5,072 Kg = 22.4 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.32
   Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 13.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 76 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.54

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.551 / 0.559
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.87 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.56 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   17.00 %,  23.00 ft / 7.01 m,  18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Forward deck:   40.00 %,  18.00 ft / 5.49 m,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Aft deck:   31.00 %,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Quarter deck:   12.00 %,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:      17.08 ft / 5.21 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 120.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 124.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 27,325 Square feet or 2,539 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 121 lbs/sq ft or 592 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.33
      - Overall: 1.00
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Below-decks miscellaneous weight accounts for 4 submerged broadside 18" 5m wet heater torpedo tubes and 8 reload torpedoes.

Above-decks miscellaneous weight allows for a long-range wireless installation.

[Delta Force]

This is a broadside torpedo cruiser concept. This particular design is not compatible with IRN doctrine and would likely be bombarded to pieces if built anyways. I am going to design a torpedo battleship/armored cruiser more suitable for the battleline.

Torpedo Cruiser, Russia Armored Torpedo Cruiser laid down 1900

Displacement:
   8,550 t light; 8,819 t standard; 9,656 t normal; 10,327 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (488.00 ft / 480.00 ft) x 52.00 ft x (24.00 / 25.33 ft)
   (148.74 m / 146.30 m) x 15.85 m  x (7.32 / 7.72 m)

Armament:
      10 - 4.72" / 120 mm 45.0 cal guns - 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 270 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 500 lbs / 227 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   5.00" / 127 mm   480.00 ft / 146.30 m   5.00 ft / 1.52 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
   Forecastle: 2.00" / 51 mm  Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 10.00" / 254 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 31,140 ihp / 23,230 Kw = 24.34 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,508 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   486 - 633

Cost:
   £1.006 million / $4.023 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 93 tons, 1.0 %
      - Guns: 93 tons, 1.0 %
   Armour: 1,281 tons, 13.3 %
      - Belts: 444 tons, 4.6 %
      - Armament: 81 tons, 0.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 658 tons, 6.8 %
      - Conning Tower: 98 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 4,866 tons, 50.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,186 tons, 22.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,106 tons, 11.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 125 tons, 1.3 %
      - Hull below water: 100 tons
      - Above deck: 25 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     3,596 lbs / 1,631 Kg = 7.2 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.45
   Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 11.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.08
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.27

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.564 / 0.572
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.23 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.91 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  14.00 ft / 4.27 m,  14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  14.00 ft / 4.27 m,  14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  14.00 ft / 4.27 m,  14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  14.00 ft / 4.27 m,  14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Average freeboard:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 167.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 96.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 17,653 Square feet or 1,640 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 85 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 78 lbs/sq ft or 380 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.22
      - Overall: 1.00
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Miscellaneous weight:
100 tons hull below water is for 6 x 18 inch torpedo tubes (2 fore, 2 aft, 8 each broadside) with 8 x 1,250 pound torpedoes each.
25 tons above deck reserve weight.

Armor in protected cruiser configuration.

[Delta Force]

It's not really an armored cruiser, but given that its primary armament is torpedoes I thought calling it a battleship would be a bit unusual.

Torpedo Armored Cruiser, Russia Torpedo Armored Cruiser laid down 1900

Displacement:
   8,000 t light; 8,450 t standard; 9,496 t normal; 10,333 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (392.00 ft / 384.00 ft) x 58.00 ft (Bulges 64.00 ft) x (24.00 / 25.86 ft)
   (119.48 m / 117.04 m) x 17.68 m (Bulges 19.51 m)  x (7.32 / 7.88 m)

Armament:
      4 - 12.00" / 305 mm 40.0 cal guns - 749.99lbs / 340.19kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      12 - 6.00" / 152 mm 45.0 cal guns - 89.99lbs / 40.82kg shells, 180 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1900 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 50.0 cal guns - 11.99lbs / 5.44kg shells, 360 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
     8 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 4,176 lbs / 1,894 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   250.00 ft / 76.20 m   9.24 ft / 2.82 m
   Ends:   5.00" / 127 mm   134.00 ft / 40.84 m   9.24 ft / 2.82 m
   Upper:   5.00" / 127 mm   250.00 ft / 76.20 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
     Main Belt inclined -30.00 degrees (positive = in)

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   5.00" / 127 mm      10.0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   3.00" / 76 mm         -               -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
   Forecastle: 2.00" / 51 mm  Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 10.00" / 254 mm, Aft 10.00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 9,102 ihp / 6,790 Kw = 17.25 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,882 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   480 - 625

Cost:
   £0.822 million / $3.288 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 770 tons, 8.1 %
      - Guns: 770 tons, 8.1 %
   Armour: 3,192 tons, 33.6 %
      - Belts: 1,863 tons, 19.6 %
      - Armament: 549 tons, 5.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 587 tons, 6.2 %
      - Conning Towers: 193 tons, 2.0 %
   Machinery: 1,422 tons, 15.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,491 tons, 26.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,496 tons, 15.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 125 tons, 1.3 %
      - Hull below water: 100 tons
      - Above deck: 25 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     10,039 lbs / 4,554 Kg = 11.6 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.26
   Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 14.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 73 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.47
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.40

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.564 / 0.569
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.60 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Average freeboard:      12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 75.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 15,742 Square feet or 1,462 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 117 lbs/sq ft or 573 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.87
      - Overall: 1.01
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Tumblehome hull.

Belt and end armor belts cover 8 feet vertically. Belt armor is equivalent to 16.17 inches of vertical armor, end armor is equivalent to 6.93 inches of vertical armor.

Miscellaneous weight:
100 tons hull below water is for 6 x 18 inch torpedo tubes (2 fore, 2 aft, 8 each broadside) with 8 x 1,250 pound torpedoes each.
25 tons above deck reserve weight.

[Tanthalas]

so you claim it has 2 tubes foreward, 2 aft and 8 on each broadside? I dont see any torpedos on it (Seriously people the tools are there USE THEM), also with its extreamly slow speed I question its ability to get into range to use the torpedos if it dod have them, I also question if 20 torpedo tubes would even fit on the hull (seriously the engines and boilers have to fit somewhere)

other than that looks good (even if I do think Tumblehomes should never have been allowed)

[Delta Force]

so you claim it has 2 tubes foreward, 2 aft and 8 on each broadside? I dont see any torpedos on it (Seriously people the tools are there USE THEM), also with its extreamly slow speed I question its ability to get into range to use the torpedos if it dod have them, I also question if 20 torpedo tubes would even fit on the hull (seriously the engines and boilers have to fit somewhere)

other than that looks good (even if I do think Tumblehomes should never have been allowed)

I thought we can sim torpedoes as miscellaneous weight? As for speed, it is intended to be part of the battleline so it has the same speed as the battleships. Lastly, think of how much faster this ship will sink once damaged below the waterline, it's tumblehome with several pre-cut holes.

[Darman]

I thought we can sim torpedoes as miscellaneous weight?

I thought this too

[KWorld]

I thought we can sim torpedoes as miscellaneous weight?

I thought this too

That's certainly the decision that was taken in the 4.5 days (as a result of this poll: http://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,5836.0.html), and what I've been doing ever since.

[KWorld]

Ah, the torpedo battleship.  The USN historically wargamed with a ship somewhat like this during the mid-1900s, but found that it needed to be faster than the battleline to get into position, and that (of course) it was a shell magnet.

[Darman]

Ah, the torpedo battleship.  The USN historically wargamed with a ship somewhat like this during the mid-1900s, but found that it needed to be faster than the battleline to get into position, and that (of course) it was a shell magnet.

Hrm... what if you could bring the enemy battleline to your torpedo battleship?  And made it much harder to see and hit from a distance?

[KWorld]

Ah, the torpedo battleship.  The USN historically wargamed with a ship somewhat like this during the mid-1900s, but found that it needed to be faster than the battleline to get into position, and that (of course) it was a shell magnet.

Hrm... what if you could bring the enemy battleline to your torpedo battleship?  And made it much harder to see and hit from a distance?

Sounds like a submarine to me..... :)


Basically, from what I read about the USN's testing of the idea, the problem was that the "torpedo battleship" had to get in a position well to the front of the enemy battle line, so it's torpedoes would have time to reach the battle line while they still had the range to do so.  If the friendly battle line reached that position relative to the enemy line, the enemy would simply turn away to open up their gun arcs.

[Tanthalas]

they can but you should atleast put the torpedo tubes on the ship... Spring sharp gives you the weight of the tube and one torpedo (if you save and reload the ship) so reloads (if any) need to be simd as misc weight.  Atleast that is the way I have always done it.  Ill post some examples in General Naval Discussion, and I will admit in advance I havnt been paying atention to torpedo carying ships (or atleast not as much as I should have aparently).

[Darman]

Sounds like a submarine to me..... :)

You'd think, right? ;)

[KWorld]

Sounds like a submarine to me..... :)

You'd think, right? ;)

Only other option I can think of, in the days of coal smoke and steam and before the torpedo bomber, is a low-profile torpedo vessel that's running slowly, but either one (sub or surface) is tough to arrange: you have to engage the enemy battle line and bring them to where you want them, so they run over the slow torpedo carriers.

[Darman]

Only other option I can think of, in the days of coal smoke and steam and before the torpedo bomber, is a low-profile torpedo vessel that's running slowly, but either one (sub or surface) is tough to arrange: you have to engage the enemy battle line and bring them to where you want them, so they run over the slow torpedo carriers.

Agreed.  Unless you control a strategic point which the enemy needs to approach.  Which is, of course, the essence of a tactically defensive but strategically offensive strategy, take something your enemy needs to take back and bleed him dry when he attempts it.