Sino-Swiss War

[Desertfox]

Well if we put the Japanese as historical, their war was 1894-95.  Your war was around 1901.  No need to have you be allied if it is not needed.  The basic reason you might have lost is that you had to focus on the Spanish and Austrians (and maybe even the Japanese...we don't know on that angle yet) then you couldn't focus on Asia and Hainan...plus maybe you had more problems with your Muslim friends in the west, thus you had more important matters to deal with than the Chinese, thus you may not have lost, but it was in your best intrest to withdraw so you could focus on your more important continent.

What Ithekro proposed.

Looks reasonable. TheWar would have been alot more limited and less nasty.

Any comments? Phoenix what do you think?

[Desertfox]

Walter we'll need your input on this as it will affect Japan too.

Right now I see it like this: Macau up for grabs, this leads to a dispute which leads to war. War centered around Hong Kong and Taiwan (Hainan is not NS). Chinese unable to concentrate full force due to possibility of Japanese intervention. Siege at HK, two seabattles around Taiwan. NS pressured by Spain and Austria seeks deal with China to turn full attention to larger threat. Peace signed, China recovers Hong Kong. NS turns attention to Spain/Austria, defeats same in 3rd Taiwan. Taal Volcano forces cease fire between combatants.

Thoughts?

[The Rock Doctor]

The threat of possible Japanese intervention wouldn't affect NS dispositions?

If NS is being pressured by Austria and Spain, why would China agree to a peace?  Wouldn't they be better off keeping at it now that they have two allies?

Is it plausible for a NS fleet, having already been attrited by fighting with China, to defeat the combined forces of two other powers?

[P3D]

The Orange Navy was still there - Desertfox' original battlefleet could not really stand up to the Austrians.

[Desertfox]

Maybe Japan is pressuring China which would move both parties to seek peace.

If NS is only fighting for Hong Kong and theres the possibility of Japanese intervention it would not deploy its whole fleet like it did, which would mean less losses overall for both parties. A more limited war, which leaves NS free to deal with the other two nations. I dont see the whole Austrian Fleet at 3rd Taiwan as realistic, so the combined forces would be less, and the might also be some OR help but not the same amount as last time.

[The Rock Doctor]

I remember that Orange was there, but I'm not seeing it mentioned in the revised histories.

I'm inclined to think that this nit-picky approach to NS revision is not going to accomplish much besides erase some NS defeats and create some NS additions:  in which case my suggestion is that Foxy take his lumps and save some of the land-grabs for after we get started again.

[Ithekro]

The Austrians did something very risky, mistakes happen (remember that when the Great White Fleet went out was the majority of the American Battleline).

I'm not sure if there is a peace or not...or a defacto peace negatiated after the fact...With Hong Kong more of less flattened by the Chinese, and other serious commitments in the Pacific more pressing that one trade city, the Swiss abandon their posts, China declared victory.  (Hainan might have been lost...got to make it look good don't we).  Negotiations through Rohan failed at least once early on, maybe twice if we keep the "Peace Fleet" incident involved.  The negotiation might have been for a peace wit someone else, but you and Pheonix need to resolve the hows and whys of Hainan.

End result might be different depending on point of view.  The Chinese might think of it as a clear victory, were the Swiss just think they left because there was nothing left to fight for, or they had bigger fish to fry.

Peace may or may not be...I'd say by 1906 yes, but you'll need to arrange a story for the 1905 peace talks that end your dispute.

But...what about the kidnapping of the Emperor and the death of the Dragon Lady as a result of that raid?  That seems to be a shifting point in China's relations with outsiders.

What Japan does will be important, but its effect on the Swiss situation might not be as great as you might think.  However that depends on what you all come up with.

My thoughts are to keep events roughly as "historical" at least in outcome.  Shifting the details until you reach that outcome it generally the "fun" part.

(Foxy: read the "South American History 101" thread at Wesworld and you'll see what happens when one tries to change things in a timeline, and how it can be resolved to the general satifaction of all parties involved.  It is not easy.)

[Desertfox]

Well Im not actually gaining anything in terms of land, Australia and Alaska being independent of this, and the Southern Phillipines well those I was just about to capture. Remember Operation Enduring Justice?

(Foxy: read the "South American History 101" thread at Wesworld and you'll see what happens when one tries to change things in a timeline, and how it can be resolved to the general satifaction of all parties involved.  It is not easy.)

Which is why I proposed not having a Swiss-Chinese war. As it is a lot simpler to explain a Japanese-Chinese war. Most of the war, the actions, and the defeats and victories I suffered, where a direct result of NS being located in Japan. We can't have a Yantai (Swiss Land victory, naval defeat, ironic isn't it?) if NS doesnt have Korea. See how it leads on? My original idea had such important battles transfered to the Spanish-Swiss war (which really didnt see much fighting, the only battle occuring between the Austrians and OR, in the Pacific no less!), yantai would be replaced with Manila Bay, a Swiss Land victory, naval defeat.

Maybe the Austrains and the OR should have their battle somewhere more realistic, of Angola?

As for Hainan, I dont see how NS can realisticlly be having it in this timeline. Trasfer it to the French and have them lose it in the 1880 French-Chinese war?

[The Rock Doctor]

Were you about to capture the southern Philippines, or were you about to attack it?

[Desertfox]

Spanish land & sea forces where non-existant. And if the Austrians or Spanish had decided to fight for it, they would have had to send their forces all the way around the world.

It was simply a matter of finding a willing collaborator to head the "independant" republic of the Phillipines. Much like the GC pulled in Cuba and Jamaica.

If it would be better I could move the date up to 1906, having the Spanish/Austrian-Swiss war end in a ceasefire.

[The Rock Doctor]

I would suggest the moderators collect each participant's views and make a final decision on this.  Otherwise, this could drag on for some time.

[Ithekro]

It seems the majority of your losses were at the Naval Battle of Yantai if I read your thread correctly.  If it can't fit in due to location verse Japanese interests, it still need to happen somewhere else or in the same place for some reason.  I'd like thoughts from some of the other parties involved rather than having this be a one sided argument with moderators and knowledgeable players on one side of things, and only one involved party on the other.

[Walter]

Walter we'll need your input on this as it will affect Japan too.

I know, I know. It's not easy to try and take a puzzle and force a piece into it that is not part of that particular puzzle on one side, and worry about annoyed CT members on the other side.  :)

Deserfox suggested to transfer the important battles to the Spanish-Swiss war as his original option. It could be an option but if a Swiss-Chinese war is important for the region, Korea could always be changed to former NS teritory. Of course I doubt it would be marked as Japanese on the map then... unless you get a Sino-Japan war after the Swiss-Chinese war.
If you plan to keep Korea Japanese as given on the map in 1096, could perhaps shifting a bit with the years work with the Swiss-Chinese war? Looking at OTL, perhaps replace the Sino-Japan war with Navalism's Swiss-Chinese war and replace the Russo-Japan war with Navalism's Sino-Japan war?

Just a weird idea ready to be shot down.  :D

[Desertfox]

We need Phoenix's input.

How about reducing the overall scope of the Sino-Swiss war, and trasfer the more important battles to the Spanish-Swiss war. The only thing I would like to keep is Alliance. Otherwise my new OOB is pretty much the same as what I had before, the ships I would have gained if no Yantai (Wys class DDs)would replace ships I captured (ex-ACM DDs) later on for no net gain in ships.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Refighting the wars of yesteryear serves no pupose.
Thread locked.
Borys