Iberian Navy

[Tanthalas]

And all my cruisers say NOMNOMNOM. The all need to be faster IMO.

Agreed personaly, the speed is a bit slow but given that the rest of his fleet is slowish, slowish cruisers would be ok for it (even if they would get smoked by slightly heavier faster cruisers).

[eltf177]

Per the rules it requires a turret or a turret on a barbette... thing would be a bear to turn, or load on that small of a deck, after all tis a 25+ ton gun.  The 9.2 british was a 25 ton gun(and from what I can tell only ever turret mounted) so I assume a 9.4 would be heavier... Not fun seams a mild description.

Actually the 1892 (?) BB Victoria carried a shielded 9.2-inch gun aft. There were several cruisers with deck-mounted 10-inch guns but these seem to have been limited to end-on fire only. I would technically allow mount and hoist but training and ROF will be _slow_, not to mention crew  discomfort in anything but clear, cool, calm weather plus vulnerability when facing an enemy...

[Logi]

And all my cruisers say NOMNOMNOM. The all need to be faster IMO.

But your cruisers are all 3 times or more in size compared to mine. Where you have one, I have three.

Not to mention the armament on both is much larger than anything in their tonnage range. The unprotected has armament better that your 3kton cruisers while the protected one has armament the equivalent of a 10kton cruiser.

To say your cruiser wins absolutely would be a falsity - it would be a wash. As I've stated before - what does it matter whether a ship has speed or not if it can't risk getting close? My slower ships still have more powerful A2/AD than a similar faster ship.

Edit: Also note your ships aren't that much faster - only 1 kt faster than the unprotected and 2 kt faster than the protected.

[snip]

On such a small hull, I feel that the handleing of those large rounds, barbette or no, will be quite adventurous. My cruisers have the speed to run, and also the numbers as well. you forget I have 6x the BP you do. I can build enough that your quantity does not have the quality you think it may. Also, I dont have to be alone in any fight we get into. I have friends with powerful ships as well. You want to tango with the Royal Navy, be ready, Im bringing friends as well as the largest battlefleet on Earth.

[Tanthalas]

Your argument is valid if you would actualy have superior numbers.  Your problem is going to come in when your limited number of cruisers are forced to face a numaricly superior and qualitativly superior force.  Now producing small ships with massive firepower can somewhat offset your disadvantages.  That said, the UK likley has more BP for Cruisers than you will have in your entire Navy ( im figuring you at about 70 BP for ships after everything Italia by comparison has 46 in just Cruisers at this moment).  Snip dosnt have to build perfect ships as he has the tonage to burn, and even his flawed ships can still bury any of us in shear numbers (outside the other super powers)

And all my cruisers say NOMNOMNOM. The all need to be faster IMO.

But your cruisers are all 3 times or more in size compared to mine. Where you have one, I have three.

Not to mention the armament on both is much larger than anything in their tonnage range. The unprotected has armament better that your 3kton cruisers while the protected one has armament the equivalent of a 10kton cruiser.

To say your cruiser wins absolutely would be a falsity - it would be a wash. As I've stated before - what does it matter whether a ship has speed or not if it can't risk getting close? My slower ships still have more powerful A2/AD than a similar faster ship.

[Logi]

Yes I perfectly understand he can drown us in number but I was pointing out the comparison - that my ships are easy picking for his - was not a very valid one considering the tonnage difference.

To that point his suggestion was not very possible either - more speed is prohibitively expensive on tonnage. Perhaps if you were, like Snip, the UK you could waste tonnage on speed - but a limited BP nation cannot afford such luxuries. That is the root of my reply - the feedback wasn't very valid.

Oh and also my cruisers though small have the same roll period as a 11 kton cruisers - just slightly less than a 10 kton battleship. They were designed to be stable. Loading might be cramped and hard but no where as adventurous as you seem to think it is.

[Tanthalas]

my whole point logi is let them grow a bit, your 868 ton one is roughly equivilant to my Partalope class Torpedo Cruiser which I intend to use as DDLs, both in size and firepower (ok so the Partalopes will be 300 tons heavier but they are 1890 boats) the Diferance that 300 tons makes is they hit almost 21 knots in 1890 (I can push it to almost 23 in 1896).  that allows them to remain marginaly usefull for a little while anyway, instead of being little more than scraper fodder post startup.  Speed costs, but honestly its a necessary expenditure.

[Logi]

300 tons increase is light on a 10 kton, but on a 1 kton that's a 30% increase in weight for marginal utility. I'm of the opinion that for small ships its extremely not worth it.

But regardless here's the modification:
+ 400 tons
+ 2 kts
+ 1 6"/40 gun
+ 250nm cruise range
- Removed armor on guns

Hull-010, Iberia Unprotected Cruiser laid down 1896

Displacement:
   1,226 t light; 1,294 t standard; 1,400 t normal; 1,485 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (280.00 ft / 280.00 ft) x 28.00 ft x (12.50 / 13.07 ft)
   (85.34 m / 85.34 m) x 8.53 m  x (3.81 / 3.98 m)

Armament:
      7 - 6.00" / 152 mm 40.0 cal guns - 103.51lbs / 46.95kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1896 Model
     3 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 725 lbs / 329 kg
      Main Torpedoes
      8 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m torpedoes - 0.491 t each, 3.927 t total
   In 4 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 6,237 ihp / 4,653 Kw = 21.00 kts
   Range 2,250nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 190 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   113 - 148

Cost:
   £0.173 million / $0.692 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 104 tons, 7.4 %
      - Guns: 96 tons, 6.9 %
      - Weapons: 8 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 712 tons, 50.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 410 tons, 29.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 174 tons, 12.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     481 lbs / 218 Kg = 4.5 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.44
   Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 10.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.68
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.507
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16.73 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m,  9.50 ft / 2.90 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  9.50 ft / 2.90 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Average freeboard:      9.38 ft / 2.86 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 185.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 76.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 5,224 Square feet or 485 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 59 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 52 lbs/sq ft or 252 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.68
      - Overall: 1.00
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Tanthalas]

Now thats a nice little cruiser, the only complaint I have about it honestly (and its a nitpick) is there is no weight assigned for the torps (are we still doing that? I have on all my ships).  I went with 4.7" guns (since the Class I based them off called for them) but all told IMHO a very nice little cruiser.  I cant even complain about it being cramped since I used the same layout =P

[KWorld]

As long as you save and reload the design, SS3b3 calculates the torpedo weight OK.  It's if you don't reload it from a save file that it calculates it but doesn't apply the weight to the ship.  An odd flaw, but there it is.


This little fellow's cute, but REALLY short-legged: it's only got enough coal for about 16.5 hours at full speed.  It's, again, an eggshell armed with a lot of hammers: it can do damage, but can't take it.  Any hit with a 4" or larger common or base-fused HE shell could penetrate the non-existent armor and bring the ship to a wallowing halt (by no means all such hits would do so, of course, but any hit to the boiler/engine room and it's done).  It's also vulnerable to a close pass in the dark or weather by a TB: even if the TB doesn't hit with its torpedos (reasonable likelihood), it's machineguns or light cannon can kill anyone above deck that's exposed and start fires.

[Tanthalas]

if you think it has short legs you should look at my 1200 toner... Course my range was based off the OTL ship so I figured it would be OK for med service and as a DDL.

As long as you save and reload the design, SS3b3 calculates the torpedo weight OK.  It's if you don't reload it from a save file that it calculates it but doesn't apply the weight to the ship.  An odd flaw, but there it is.


This little fellow's cute, but REALLY short-legged: it's only got enough coal for about 16.5 hours at full speed.  It's, again, an eggshell armed with a lot of hammers: it can do damage, but can't take it.  Any hit with a 4" or larger common or base-fused HE shell could penetrate the non-existent armor and bring the ship to a wallowing halt (by no means all such hits would do so, of course, but any hit to the boiler/engine room and it's done).  It's also vulnerable to a close pass in the dark or weather by a TB: even if the TB doesn't hit with its torpedos (reasonable likelihood), it's machineguns or light cannon can kill anyone above deck that's exposed and start fires.

[Logi]

It's quite light for a cruiser - I don't expect long legs for such ships. But if we were to armor the ship in any meaningful way (to repel 4" and below) the weight of the ship would more than double - which is not worth it at all.

But in any case - increased range version
+ 400 tons
+ 1750 nm at cruise speed
+ 0.5" Splinter Shield for 6" Battery
+ 0.45" Splinter Shield for Conning Tower.

Hull-010, Iberia Unprotected Cruiser laid down 1896

Displacement:
   1,509 t light; 1,585 t standard; 1,800 t normal; 1,972 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (280.00 ft / 280.00 ft) x 28.00 ft x (16.00 / 17.15 ft)
   (85.34 m / 85.34 m) x 8.53 m  x (4.88 / 5.23 m)

Armament:
      7 - 6.00" / 152 mm 40.0 cal guns - 103.51lbs / 46.95kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1896 Model
     3 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 725 lbs / 329 kg
      Main Torpedoes
      8 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m torpedoes - 0.491 t each, 3.927 t total
   In 4 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Conning towers: Forward 0.45" / 11 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7,348 ihp / 5,482 Kw = 21.00 kts
   Range 4,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 387 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   137 - 179

Cost:
   £0.214 million / $0.856 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 104 tons, 5.8 %
      - Guns: 96 tons, 5.3 %
      - Weapons: 8 tons, 0.4 %
   Armour: 11 tons, 0.6 %
      - Armament: 10 tons, 0.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 1 tons, 0.1 %
   Machinery: 934 tons, 51.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 460 tons, 25.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 291 tons, 16.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     561 lbs / 255 Kg = 5.2 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.43
   Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 10.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.63
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.502 / 0.513
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16.73 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  11.50 ft / 3.51 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Average freeboard:      9.47 ft / 2.89 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 183.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 64.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 5,234 Square feet or 486 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 65 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 53 lbs/sq ft or 256 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 1.97
      - Overall: 1.00
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Tanthalas]

Im with Logi on this one honestly these kind of ships are realy just over grown Destroyers, their role is mostly just to put the hurt on the other sides TB/DD (which can take even less damage), eventualy they will grow into what we all know and recognise as CLs.

[Logi]

Was thinking about growing the 2 kton 9.4" design a bit for better utility (longer range, better protection, etc.)
Had this strange idea while design it - what if I overgrew the protected cruiser concept to allow for battleship weaponry?

So you have a protected "cruiser" here - I'm not sure if this breaks the rules or not.

Hull-012, Iberia Protected "Cruiser" laid down 1895

Displacement:
   4,302 t light; 4,507 t standard; 5,000 t normal; 5,395 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (350.00 ft / 350.00 ft) x 50.00 ft x (20.00 / 21.18 ft)
   (106.68 m / 106.68 m) x 15.24 m  x (6.10 / 6.46 m)

Armament:
      4 - 11.00" / 279 mm 40.0 cal guns - 529.00lbs / 239.95kg shells, 60 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1895 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      6 - 6.00" / 152 mm 40.0 cal guns - 103.51lbs / 46.95kg shells, 100 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1895 Model
     6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 2,737 lbs / 1,242 kg
      Main Torpedoes
      6 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m torpedoes - 0.474 t each, 2.845 t total
   In 6 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.00" / 76 mm   280.00 ft / 85.34 m   4.00 ft / 1.22 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 123 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   3.00" / 76 mm      5.00" / 127 mm
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 7.58" / 193 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7,194 ihp / 5,367 Kw = 18.00 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 888 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   296 - 386

Cost:
   £0.559 million / $2.237 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 512 tons, 10.2 %
      - Guns: 506 tons, 10.1 %
      - Weapons: 6 tons, 0.1 %
   Armour: 943 tons, 18.9 %
      - Belts: 137 tons, 2.7 %
      - Armament: 227 tons, 4.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 531 tons, 10.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 48 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,219 tons, 24.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,627 tons, 32.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 698 tons, 14.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     3,039 lbs / 1,378 Kg = 4.6 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.22
   Metacentric height 2.5 ft / 0.8 m
   Roll period: 13.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.65
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.500 / 0.509
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.71 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  11.00 ft / 3.35 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Average freeboard:      9.43 ft / 2.87 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 120.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 68.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 11,660 Square feet or 1,083 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 89 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 107 lbs/sq ft or 520 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.75
      - Overall: 1.00
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Tanthalas]

Not even protected against its own guns at any reasonable engagement range.  The reasons noone built ships like this OTL, I dont know them all but I do know Rate of Fire (or in most cases the lack there of) was a Major Factor.  Secondly at 18 knots she will get run down my most any AC, which is armored to kill her while the 3" armor would be just enough to arm the fuses on say an 8" shell.