Iberian Navy

[Tanthalas]

What the Guy above me said

Is modification of designs still open?

No

[Jefgte]

Is modification of designs still open?



No

The game is not started & made minor adjustements are always possible if the displacement (Spreadsheet & 1900H1 report ) didnt change.

Jef

[snip]

The game has effectively started, so only in cases of rule violations will revision of designs be allowed.

[Tanthalas]

QFE

The game has effectively started, so only in cases of rule violations will revision of designs be allowed.

[KWorld]

That shouldn't be necessary. The design is 380 ft lwl whereas the USS Indiana was 350 ft lwl. Given part of the tertiary is already raised (4 out of 12) there should be enough space to fit the guns.

30' isn't very much, especially when your main and secondary batteries are both larger than Indiana's (and, in the case of the 9.4" guns, 10 calibers longer).. The 9.4" guns by themselves will  use up almost all that extra length.  Look at the picture of Indiana here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/USS_Oregon_1893_USNHC_NH_76619_010332.jpg

[snip]

*applods the good drawing of his home-state's BB*

[Logi]

30' isn't very much, especially when your main and secondary batteries are both larger than Indiana's (and, in the case of the 9.4" guns, 10 calibers longer).. The 9.4" guns by themselves will  use up almost all that extra length.  Look at the picture of Indiana here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/USS_Oregon_1893_USNHC_NH_76619_010332.jpg

That's quite simply false. While a 9.4" gun may (gun length wise) may take up ~20 ft more space. I have superfiring tertiaries, the Indiana is different. The Indiana (if you look at your picture and the specs on the ship) carried 4 x 6"/40 guns and 20 x 6pdrs.

A 6pdr has the overall length of 2.48m vs the 5.25m of a 4"/50. Given this, we can roughly approximate that a 4"/50 takes double the volume as a 6pdr. Given the overall length of a 6"/40 is around 6.3m (120% of a 4"/50 gun) we can make the very crude estimate that removing the 4x6"/40 and 20x6pdr gives the equivalent space for 14.25 4"/50 guns. Crudely we can say that there is enough space.

If we want to be more precise, we can measure the picture you have given. Assuming the 8"/35 turret is only the length of the barrel (it is larger) then distance from the barrel tip to the rear end of the 8"/40 turret is 280" or 23.33'. The space between the 8"/40 turrets (the place where the 20x6pdr and 4x6"/40 reside) is about double of that, 560", 46.66'.

Given that the space between the 6pdrs is about the length of the gun in the picture, we can use this measure for the 4"/50. The guns need 200" of space between them. 560" is enough to store 2 of these guns in a very comfortable manner (+80" per gun). This becomes 8 x 4"/50 guns on 350'.

Now the class I design has a length of 380', a 30' gain of which 20' is allocated to the longer 9.4"/45 guns. Now let's assume all of that 10' (or 120") is allocated to that midsection. There is now 680" of space which is enough to store 3 4"/50 guns in the manner previously prescribed (+26.66" per gun). This becomes 12 x 4"/50 guns on 380'.

QED.

[KWorld]

Not convincing.  They'll physically fit, and PROBABLY be workable as long as the 9.4" guns are trained out on the broadside.  But if the 9.4" guns have to be trained mostly fore or aft (like say against a cruiser leading a flotilla of torpedo boats), your deck mounted 4" guns will be either masked by the 9.4s or their crews will in serious blast danger.  The 6-pounder gunners on the Indiana have the same problem, slightly lessened because the 8" gun will have less blast effect than the 9.4s.  Why make the ship weaker than it could be by putting the guns in a place where they are less capable than they could be?

[Logi]

Downsized the ship, removed 4 x 4"/50 deck mounts and replaced them with casemates. The deck mounts are half superfiring (2 per side deck level, 2 per side raised). The tertiary is full enclosed and protected for blast damage.

Main belt thinned and protection increased, allowing for the upper belt to become shorter and much thinner.

Hull-019, Iberia Predreadnought laid down 1900

Displacement:
   9,800 t light; 10,487 t standard; 11,370 t normal; 12,076 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (370.00 ft / 370.00 ft) x 69.00 ft x (28.00 / 29.38 ft)
   (112.78 m / 112.78 m) x 21.03 m  x (8.53 / 8.95 m)

Armament:
      4 - 14.00" / 356 mm 35.0 cal guns - 1,286.46lbs / 583.53kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      8 - 9.40" / 239 mm 45.0 cal guns - 418.83lbs / 189.98kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
     4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 - 4.00" / 102 mm 50.0 cal guns - 33.88lbs / 15.37kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      4 - 4.00" / 102 mm 50.0 cal guns - 33.88lbs / 15.37kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1900 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 8,903 lbs / 4,038 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   266.00 ft / 81.08 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   104.00 ft / 31.70 m   5.00 ft / 1.52 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   266.00 ft / 81.08 m   5.00 ft / 1.52 m
     Main Belt covers 111 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      6.00" / 152 mm
   2nd:   7.00" / 178 mm   2.50" / 64 mm      4.00" / 102 mm
   3rd:   0.25" / 6 mm   0.25" / 6 mm            -
   4th:   0.50" / 13 mm   0.25" / 6 mm            -

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
   Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm  Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 7.55" / 192 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 12,190 ihp / 9,094 Kw = 18.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,589 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   549 - 715

Cost:
   £1.318 million / $5.273 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,506 tons, 13.2 %
      - Guns: 1,506 tons, 13.2 %
   Armour: 3,069 tons, 27.0 %
      - Belts: 1,700 tons, 14.9 %
      - Armament: 681 tons, 6.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 607 tons, 5.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 82 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 1,905 tons, 16.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,319 tons, 29.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,570 tons, 13.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     7,049 lbs / 3,197 Kg = 5.1 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 3.3 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 15.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.81
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.557 / 0.564
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.36 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.24 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m,  11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  11.00 ft / 3.35 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Average freeboard:      10.43 ft / 3.18 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 110.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 63.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 17,929 Square feet or 1,666 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 83 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 155 lbs/sq ft or 758 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.90
      - Longitudinal: 2.46
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[KWorld]

Only issue I can see is that you have 4 of your 4" guns in deck mounts on the main deck and 4 in main deck casemates, Not quite sure how that lays out.  I'd suggest moving 2 of them up a deck and casemating the other pair, but that's me.

[Jefgte]

Logi, Did you SS tests ?
3T2x356
3T2x279

[Logi]

3T2x356 becomes something like this:
It is lighter and can support a heavier 4"/50 battery but I am concerned with the over-pressure from the main guns. The shields protects the secondary but it shouldn't protect the superstructure (which will be vulnerable to blast damage).

Hull-019, Iberia Predreadnought laid down 1900

Displacement:
   9,000 t light; 9,605 t standard; 10,448 t normal; 11,123 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (390.00 ft / 390.00 ft) x 65.00 ft x (26.50 / 27.84 ft)
   (118.87 m / 118.87 m) x 19.81 m  x (8.08 / 8.49 m)

Armament:
      6 - 14.00" / 356 mm 35.0 cal guns - 1,286.46lbs / 583.53kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
     3 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      8 - 4.00" / 102 mm 50.0 cal guns - 33.88lbs / 15.37kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1900 Model
     8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      6 - 4.00" / 102 mm 50.0 cal guns - 33.88lbs / 15.37kg shells, 200 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
     6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 8,193 lbs / 3,716 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   267.00 ft / 81.38 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   123.00 ft / 37.49 m   4.00 ft / 1.22 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   267.00 ft / 81.38 m   4.00 ft / 1.22 m
     Main Belt covers 105 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.4" / 314 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      6.00" / 152 mm
   2nd:   0.50" / 13 mm   0.25" / 6 mm            -
   3rd:   0.50" / 13 mm   0.25" / 6 mm            -

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
   Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm  Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 10.00" / 254 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 11,221 ihp / 8,371 Kw = 18.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,518 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   516 - 671

Cost:
   £1.146 million / $4.583 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,100 tons, 10.5 %
      - Guns: 1,100 tons, 10.5 %
   Armour: 2,898 tons, 27.7 %
      - Belts: 1,646 tons, 15.8 %
      - Armament: 553 tons, 5.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 595 tons, 5.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 103 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,753 tons, 16.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,250 tons, 31.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,448 tons, 13.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     7,075 lbs / 3,209 Kg = 5.2 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 3.1 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 15.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.83
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.03

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.544 / 0.552
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.75 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  10.00 ft / 3.05 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Average freeboard:      9.51 ft / 2.90 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 105.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 59.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 17,592 Square feet or 1,634 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 87 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 145 lbs/sq ft or 709 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 2.00
      - Overall: 1.00
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[snip]

Yep, I need to get the Illustrious class units out of the Med.

Anyway, I think it is to damn small to safely fight proper BBs. As a matter of size, it can take far less hits before there are issues from it. Not saying she cant dish it out, but she most definelty cannot take the punishment that a compatible full sized BB could take. And that is ignoring (seeing as you just brush it off) the fact that she will swamp in any sort of sea. Very very powerful monitor that can inflict quite the punishment, but a subpar battleship in terms of ability to take a hit, serviceability and seaworthiness.

[Tanthalas]

while this ship is technicly legal, my largest concern about it is the ease with which ships with this large (or larger) twins can be rapidly refit with tripple 12" guns to turn what was a reasonable (if slow firing) predread into a real (if rather slow) Dreadnaught.  If this ship came up amongst the mods for discussion about legality I would have to come down against it for this reason.  (no backdoor Dread refits sorry)

[Logi]

And that is ignoring (seeing as you just brush it off) the fact that she will swamp in any sort of sea.

No, rather seeing that as complete bullocks that is not backed up by any empirical or theoretical model.

The ship has a bow wave height of 4.64 ft. In a H_1/3T₂ sea state the ship will be wet 0.44% of the time in 5 ft waves (typical of the Med). To go to extremes, in 10 ft waves, the ship will be wet 6.66% of the time.

But let us take a section behind the bow where the freeboard is 9 ft. Let us assume that the bow wave height did not decrease and remains the same. This example is our bounded above and is the maximum wetness probability (because bow wave will dramatically decrease) the ship will have in the sections rear of the bow. In a H_1/3T₂ sea state the ship will be wet now 14.96% of the time in 5 ft waves and 38.66% of the time in 10 ft waves.

What does this mean? It means in the maximum (worst) case the ship can operate in the Straits of Gibraltar at reduced capacity. Given that is not the ship's function - the ship has absolutely no problem operating in the Med for any mission.

And that is ignoring (seeing as you just brush it off) the fact that she will swamp in any sort of sea. Very very powerful monitor that can inflict quite the punishment, but a subpar battleship in terms of ability to take a hit, serviceability and seaworthiness.

Supbar in terms of ability to take a hit how? It has 12" armor, extremely similar or even better than even the UK's battleships. It has a armor coverage of 5 ft above waterline out of a total of 9 ft freeboard (vs your 7.5 ft on a 20 ft freeboard).

I think I have addressed the point of seaworthiness to death. I assume serviceability is linked with seaworthiness and thus do not wish to address it again.

while this ship is technically legal, my largest concern about it is the ease with which ships with this large (or larger) twins can be rapidly refit with triple 12" guns to turn what was a reasonable (if slow firing) predread into a real (if rather slow) Dreadnought.  If this ship came up amongst the mods for discussion about legality I would have to come down against it for this reason.  (no backdoor Dread refits sorry)

A legitimate concern that I had as well when designing the ship. I don't think it is possible given the length of the ship. It is a very tight fit and a 12"/45 gun (modern) would take up 560" barrel length vs the 14"/35's 490". This is a total of 12.5' of additional space needed. This is simply not possible in the A-Q-Y format with on 390 ft of length. (Remember the Brandenburg with 11"/40 had to be squeezed to fit in 380 feet of length). However, it is an valid view and I would understand if it was judged not legal.