Technology and Research changes

[KWorld]

Comments:

First turbo-electric year should be around 1902, while none were built, there wasn't any reason they couldn't have been, the design and concept were there.  By 1911, the range bonus was 20% compared to a direct-drive system.  Also shp limit seems low, compared to geared drives.

Geared seems to be available too early: it's a harder problem to solve than either turbo-electric or hydraulic.  Historically not available until precision gears could be cut AND were strong enough to take the load, 1911 for smaller ones and 1915-1916 for larger ones.  If you can get geared turbines at the same time as turbo-electric or hydraulic systems, I don't know that the other options are worth bothering with.

[Tanthalas]

Since we are esentialy using the tech research system from N3 ($1.00 per turn per tech) I would assume your proposing to have VTE tech be half cost research?  Honestly I still dont like the system, to many techs to research for one thing, and to many bonuses for the mods to keep track of for another (trust me just keeping track of who had what engine year could be a pain at times).  That said it atleast looks workable (even though I hate the thought of having to refer to ANOTHER table just to figure out what I can or cant do in a story).

[Nobody]

First turbo-electric year should be around 1902, while none were built, there wasn't any reason they couldn't have been, the design and concept were there.  By 1911, the range bonus was 20% compared to a direct-drive system.  Also shp limit seems low, compared to geared drives.

Well what would you a 1902 researchable electric drive to look like?
I choose the 1911 engine year for electric and 1907 for direct drive because that gives electric drive a 23% range advantage.

Geared seems to be available too early: it's a harder problem to solve than either turbo-electric or hydraulic.  Historically not available until precision gears could be cut AND were strong enough to take the load, 1911 for smaller ones and 1915-1916 for larger ones.  If you can get geared turbines at the same time as turbo-electric or hydraulic systems, I don't know that the other options are worth bothering with.

I tried to make all first generation systems weak while covering all otl ships I could think of. If you have better reference values I would be eager to see them. Smaller numbers are fine with me if otl ships remain buildable.

[snip]

Could you post the spreadsheet in which this was made? The formating is confouning me a bit (then again it is Monday)

[KWorld]

First turbo-electric year should be around 1902, while none were built, there wasn't any reason they couldn't have been, the design and concept were there.  By 1911, the range bonus was 20% compared to a direct-drive system.  Also shp limit seems low, compared to geared drives.

Well what would you a 1902 researchable electric drive to look like?
I choose the 1911 engine year for electric and 1907 for direct drive because that gives electric drive a 23% range advantage.

Looked into it : a 1902 date should probably use the same 1903 date as the DD turbines, with only a 5% range bonus to make up for the fact that the weight of the engine is lower than it ought to be.  SHP limit for the 1902 turbo-electric should be around 10,000 shp.

The 1905  TE plant should probably have a SHP limit of around 15000, with a range bonus of 10-15%.

The 1909 & 1913 TE plants should probably have a range bonus of +20%, as historical.

Geared seems to be available too early: it's a harder problem to solve than either turbo-electric or hydraulic.  Historically not available until precision gears could be cut AND were strong enough to take the load, 1911 for smaller ones and 1915-1916 for larger ones.  If you can get geared turbines at the same time as turbo-electric or hydraulic systems, I don't know that the other options are worth bothering with.

I tried to make all first generation systems weak while covering all otl ships I could think of. If you have better reference values I would be eager to see them. Smaller numbers are fine with me if otl ships remain buildable.

As far as geared goes, I wouldn't have it as an option until 1909.  Remove the 1905 line, and change the SHP progression to 10000, 25000, 36000, 45000, 55000, etc.

[Nobody]

Thanks for the input KWorld, not taking everything yet though.

Also do to request in a new format and italic passages should be discussed.


Naval Propulsion
Research can be started once the predecessor - if there is one - has been developed, or after development a an engine of the same level (reference year) has been finished.

VTE Steam Plants, Complex Reciprocating Engines
half research cost once turbines have been developed, automatically granted when developing a steam turbine of the same level (reference year)
1895:   Engine Year 1900
1902:   Engine Year 1905
1905:   Engine Year 1909,   Range +5%
1909:   Engine Year 1912,   Range +10%
1913:   Engine Year 1916,   Range +25%
1917:   Engine Year 1920,   Range +40%
1922:   Engine Year 1925,   Range +40%
1927:   Engine Year 1930,   Range +35%
1932:   Engine Year 1935,   Range +35%
1937:   Engine Year 1940,   Range +35%
1942:   Engine Year 1945,   Range +30%
1945:   Engine Year 1950,   Range +30%

Direct-Drive Turbines
1902:   Engine Year 1903,   Max. power 10500 HP/shaft
1905:   Engine Year 1905,   Max. power 20000 HP/shaft
1909:   Engine Year 1907,   Max. power 22000 HP/shaft
1913:   Engine Year 1909,   Max. power 25000 HP/shaft
1917:   Engine Year 1912,   Max. power 28000 HP/shaft

Geared Turbines
1909:   Engine Year 1912,   Max. power 10000 HP/shaft,   Requires 1905 Direct Drive turbines
1913:   Engine Year 1916,   Max. power 20000 HP/shaft
1917:   Engine Year 1920,   Max. power 38000 HP/shaft
1922:   Engine Year 1925,   Max. power 40000 HP/shaft
1927:   Engine Year 1930,   Max. power 50000 HP/shaft
1932:   Engine Year 1935,   Max. power 55000 HP/shaft
1937:   Engine Year 1940,   Max. power 60000 HP/shaft
1942:   Engine Year 1945,   Max. power 70000 HP/shaft
1947:   Engine Year 1950

Turbo-electric drive
1902:   Engine Year 1903,   Max. power 5000 HP/shaft,   Range +5%
1905:   Engine Year 1908,   Max. power 15000 HP/shaft,   Range +5%
1909:   Engine Year 1911,   Max. power 25000 HP/shaft,   Range +10%
1913:   Engine Year 1915,   Max. power 40000 HP/shaft,   Range +15%
1917:   Engine Year 1919,   Max. power 60000 HP/shaft,   Range +20%
1922:   Engine Year 1921,   Max. power 70000 HP/shaft,   Range +25%
1927:   Engine Year 1923,   Range +35%
1932:   Engine Year 1926,   Range +30%
1937:   Engine Year 1931,   Range +25%
1942:   Engine Year 1935,   Range +20%
1945:   Engine Year 1939,   Range +15%

Hydraulic Turbines
1905:   Engine Year 1910,   Max. power 10000 HP/shaft,   Requires 1902 Direct Drive turbines
1909:   Engine Year 1914,   Max. power 30000 HP/shaft
1913:   Engine Year 1918,   Max. power 35000 HP/shaft
1917:   Engine Year 1921,   Max. power 42000 HP/shaft
1922:   Engine Year 1925,   Max. power 45000 HP/shaft
1927:   Engine Year 1929,   Max. power 48000 HP/shaft
1932:   Engine Year 1933,   Max. power 52000 HP/shaft
1937:   Engine Year 1938,   Max. power 55000 HP/shaft
1942:   Engine Year 1942,   Max. power 60000 HP/shaft
1945:   Engine Year 1946,   Max. power 65000 HP/shaft

Diesel Engines
details still to be determined
1911:   Max. power 1500 HP/shaft,   Requires 1905 VTE
1915:   Max. power 13000 HP/shaft
1927:   Max. power 28000 HP/shaft
1931:   Max. power 32000 HP/shaft
1937:   Max. power 55000 HP/shaft

P.S.:
I don't like this form of presentation and would prefer the table posted before.

[Tanthalas]

I to liked the table better, but as far as the specifics go it looks good IMHO.  I would say it was ready for adoption (since it looks like this version won the poll). *grumbles about complexites interfearing with stories*

[snip]

Comments:

or after development a an engine of the same level (reference year) has been finished

I don't like this provision. I understand it prevents development of non-direct systems before direct ones (see below for a solution). I feel that you need to have the appropriate prerecs for each level. Allowing this will lead to much min-maxing, which I wish to avoid. Remember, catching up will be cheaper then in N3.

automatically granted when developing a steam turbine of the same level (reference year)

No gain should come from sitting around. You want more efficient VTE, pay separately for them.

I don't like this form of presentation and would prefer the table posted before.

I to liked the table better, but as far as the specifics go it looks good IMHO.  I would say it was ready for adoption (since it looks like this version won the poll).

This formatting is identical to the rest of the rules.

One provision I would like to see is this. Bold is the change.

1909:   Engine Year 1912,   Max. power 10000 HP/shaft Requires 1909 Direct Drive turbines.

Considering we are throwing out the year requirements for tech, and instead using them to adjust cost, I feel that we need this additional qualifier for the entry technology on each tree only. This would allow for the elimination of one part which I do not agree with.

[Nobody]

I made a few updates, as suggested snip.

Research can be started once the predecessor - if there is one - has been developed, or after development a an engine of the same level (reference year) has been finished.

half research cost once turbines have been developed, automatically granted when developing a steam turbine of the same level (reference year)

My idea behind these were these:
VTE engines are of little value for most of our ships (warships) especially once you have turbines. They also have much simpler thermodynamics which is why I thought that that it would be fair to get this simpler tech as bonus.
Also, as they are simpler, they should be cheaper, but they may not become a bypass to get the later techs faster/cheaper.

I might have been thinking too much, though. If anyone has a better, simpler or entirely different ideas, I'm open to suggestions.

[snip]

Looks better to me, tho the part about being able to skip around trees is still there. From a bookkeeping and gamemaster standpoint, I am very against that part. It makes keeping track of who has what and who can research what much more difficult. I am 100% OK with VTE being a cheaper tech to research, but still think we need to pay individually for it.

Question: is the omission of a prior technology for Turbo-Electric intentional?

[KWorld]

The prior tech for turbo-electric would be elecrtical power stations, in wide use across the civilized world.  So no, probably doesn't need one really.

[snip]

you would still need Naval turbines, which is what I am getting at.

[Nobody]

Question: is the omission of a prior technology for Turbo-Electric intentional?

Sort of. With KWorlds input it now start at the same time as direct-drive, so a dependency makes little sense. However, starting with electric drive means it's getting more difficult to get the other techs.

Looks better to me, tho the part about being able to skip around trees is still there. From a bookkeeping and gamemaster standpoint, I am very against that part. It makes keeping track of who has what and who can research what much more difficult. I am 100% OK with VTE being a cheaper tech to research, but still think we need to pay individually for it.

And I think it's important to allow switching. But you would always be behind if you do, if you have to move "sideways" in my table. By the way we do have one other table like mine already - for the guns.

Remember, catching up will be cheaper then in N3.

Cheaper yes, but we have nothing to speed things up, do we?

[Tanthalas]

actualy we do have things to speed up tech development, lifted strait from N3 out of date techs take half as long as current techs and cost half as much (if I remember right out of date was anything that the next version was available)

[KWorld]

you would still need Naval turbines, which is what I am getting at.

We don't really have a "naval turbine" technology, though if we wanted to add it it would be appropriate back around 1896 or so (to allow Turbinia, HMS Viper, etc).

Turbo-electrics aren't really children of the direct-drive system, they were more of a parallel branch, developed because it was realized VERY early that coupling the propellers directly  to a high-speed turbine shaft did not work very well a lot of the time.