Technology and Research changes

[snip]

I know that ideas for this have been tossed around elsewhere. What proposals does the community have regarding this?

[Tanthalas]

I was always for minimal restriction, some rules are unfortunatly necessary however.  That said I would like to see a way within the existing framework from N3 to make technology more dependant on world events or the stories based on them atleast.  IMHO some of the techs are unnecessary (engine year comes to mind although I see the reasoning behind SHP restrictions).  most techs were tied to some historical baseline (some I honestly never understood)

I know that ideas for this have been tossed around elsewhere. What proposals does the community have regarding this?

[Logi]

I agree that we should remove the ties of tech to historical baseline. It makes very little sense for a country focusing on a single tech to be prevented from further progress by just because nations in another timeline (ie: RL) decided not to progress further at that time. Rather I prefer having research unrestricted by historical baselines but slowing as a country gets further and further into the technology.

[Tanthalas]

Some things to consider, for example the turbine year restriction.  1904 is literaly the first year they are worth using, before that point they actualy weigh more than VTEs (1903 is close but not quite there yet).  These things are simply put Software enforced restrictions, nothing to be done about it.

So my point is if someone wanted to use Turbines in 1900 that should have some sort of impact on their utility (for that nation atleast), Another Nation might have a war and decide to put 6 main guns on their BBs (be this AQY ala Germany or in Tripples like the US Considerd).  I think the tech list should be more of a general guideline than a set in stone this is how it is.

[Nobody]

Especially the engine tech are something I think we should keep and possibly extend. I see a couple* of reasons for that:

• SpringSharp treating most engines exactly the same way is just annoying: why does a diesel not need less fuel, and why is a VTE always worse in every aspect although OTL they were much better for cruising?
  The other thing I would like to keep is the extra weight needed for some developments (radio etc.), but as technology progresses they should become a part of the ship - if it was build with them.
  
  
  *)well as I started writing I hat at least 2 more good ones, but I don't remember them anymore...

[Tanthalas]

Bold is mine and in a word NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.  I have no issues with if you add it on later, but if you have the efing tech it should be considerd as part of the ship from the begining.

Especially the engine tech are something I think we should keep and possibly extend. I see a couple* of reasons for that:

• SpringSharp treating most engines exactly the same way is just annoying: why does a diesel not need less fuel, and why is a VTE always worse in every aspect although OTL they were much better for cruising?
  The other thing I would like to keep is the extra weight needed for some developments (radio etc.), but as technology progresses they should become a part of the ship - if it was build with them.
  
  
  *)well as I started writing I hat at least 2 more good ones, but I don't remember them anymore...
  

[Nobody]

Just to make sure we don't misunderstand each other.

I think (just as in N3) that after developing early radios you have to reserve some weight for it if you want your ships to have them.
I further think that in some cases a change in weight should be considered. So the very first radio might weight 5 tons, the second proper one 25 tons and with the 3rd generation they have become so common, that they are part of new build ships.

You on the other are of the opinion, that only refitted system should need extra weight?

[Tanthalas]

Yup things like Fire Control and Radio once you develop the tech you can retrofit it to older ships (posibly even ones curently under construction) but new builds started after the development shouldnt IMHO require aditional tonage for what should be standard features.

Example none of our starting ships should have Radio (of any type) as it didnt come into common use untill 1900ish

Just to make sure we don't misunderstand each other.

I think (just as in N3) that after developing early radios you have to reserve some weight for it if you want your ships to have them.
I further think that in some cases a change in weight should be considered. So the very first radio might weight 5 tons, the second proper one 25 tons and with the 3rd generation they have become so common, that they are part of new build ships.

You on the other are of the opinion, that only refitted system should need extra weight?

[snip]

I'm going to side with Nobody on this. In addition, modification to those sort of rules regarding the addition of weight for componates also falls under ship design, modification, etc. That has been placed off limits from changes.

As far as tech goes, I wish to keep the N3 tree as intact as possible. Most tech requires the preceding tech to be viable and from a common sense standpoint.  I agree however that progression should be allowed to happen differently then OTL. Here is my proposal

• We begin with a tech that is being researched. There is a base cost for this research.
• Next, the year on the techtree is looked at. Depending on the relation of the game year to the listed year, a modifer is applied to the cost  of research
• Finaly, the number of other nations that possess the tech in question is examined. If the number is greater then 0, then a modifier is applied to the cost of the technology.
• The cost of a tech then becomes Cost=BY/(N) where B is the base cost, N is the modifier for the number of nations that have the tech, and Y is the modifier based on the difference in years from the tech tree

Thoughts?

[Tanthalas]

I strongly disagree, I argued against the misc. weight rule when it was initialy put in it just dosnt make sence... seriously the weight of the masts, Rangefinders, and big ass clocks were part of the standard tonages by 1920... they wernt going "Oh now we have to add some weight for the mast"... which is what the Nverse system is doing.  SS already adds weight for these items we dont need to add it twice.

[snip]

Once again, that portion of the rules are not up for discution.

[Tanthalas]

Dosn't meen I have to agree with you, especialy when you are obviously wrong in my opinion, I have argued that its stupid for going on 5 years.  Im not going to stop simply because it isnt open for discustion, heck refusing to even talk about it is more likley to agrivate me to the point I refuse to ever drop the subject (ask the previous mods about this one)

Once again, that portion of the rules are not up for discution.

[Delta Force]

I strongly disagree, I argued against the misc. weight rule when it was initialy put in it just dosnt make sence... seriously the weight of the masts, Rangefinders, and big ass clocks were part of the standard tonages by 1920... they wernt going "Oh now we have to add some weight for the mast"... which is what the Nverse system is doing.  SS already adds weight for these items we dont need to add it twice.

Tonnage for future systems upgrades was also set aside. Perhaps extras such as fire control, radars, etc. can be paid for with cash? They are limited production electro-mechanical systems that are worth far more than their weight in steel.

[Tanthalas]

not alot relitivly though, paying for them with cash would atleast be logical.  Best I can understand the original 250 tons for FC (the one that realy drives me nuts) is it was to acount for a larger than "normal" mast... seriously thats the explination given when I questiond the tonage.

I strongly disagree, I argued against the misc. weight rule when it was initialy put in it just dosnt make sence... seriously the weight of the masts, Rangefinders, and big ass clocks were part of the standard tonages by 1920... they wernt going "Oh now we have to add some weight for the mast"... which is what the Nverse system is doing.  SS already adds weight for these items we dont need to add it twice.

Tonnage for future systems upgrades was also set aside. Perhaps extras such as fire control, radars, etc. can be paid for with cash? They are limited production electro-mechanical systems that are worth far more than their weight in steel.

[Delta Force]

not alot relitivly though, paying for them with cash would atleast be logical.  Best I can understand the original 250 tons for FC (the one that realy drives me nuts) is it was to acount for a larger than "normal" mast... seriously thats the explination given when I questiond the tonage.

I always thought it was a really heavy electro-mechanical computer and control cable setup. That and I don't think that the masts were that much heavier (certainly not 250 tons heavier). Coincidence rangefinders don't weigh that much or take up enough space to require something that large.