Starting Nation economic strength

[Nobody]

First off, that's a really nice list, but I think "you're jumping the gun" here.

Even for the UK 100000 tons of production per (per what? We haven't even finalized the turn length!) turn is a lot, they could build a whole world war fleet in a year! Now if that's what we want that is fine, however for the second rate powers production is too high imho (more than 3 dreadnoughts per turn!?). I think we should base their production on what they really need (and not much more), because that would be my definition of a second rate power (enough to do anything on its own if they have to, but better off buying some stuff and hardly any reserves for exports). For that we need the other costs first.

Same with money. We need to settle on the upkeep, then the other costs and lastly we calculate and define how much money the countries need.

[Delta Force]

Snip, are the IP figures for naval production only? The Austro-Hungarians have more total industry than the Italians and the US has the largest industrial base in the world if it is all industrial sectors. 1900 Japan is also a rather unique case as it went from building no battleships of its own in 1900 to building almost all of its own battleships from 1905 on (although still making major ship and components purchases). Not sure how that would really be represented as it is a rather large and unique production surge.

[Nobody]

Snip, are the IP figures for naval production only? The Austro-Hungarians have more total industry than the Italians and the US has the largest industrial base in the world if it is all industrial sectors. 1900 Japan is also a rather unique case as it went from building no battleships of its own in 1900 to building almost all of its own battleships from 1905 on (although still making major ship and components purchases). Not sure how that would really be represented as it is a rather large and unique production surge.

I think it should be all industry, so that it is alway used in a similar way, whether you're building armies, tanks or ships.

[Jefgte]

Even for the UK 100000 tons of production per (per what? We haven't even finalized the turn length!) ...

Per year.

With 4 turn in war time; 25 000t per turn.
---
That mean RN could be with 20yo ships...2 000 000t   :o

Jef  ;)

[KWorld]

Even for the UK 100000 tons of production per (per what? We haven't even finalized the turn length!) ...

Per year.

With 4 turn in war time; 25 000t per turn.
---
That mean RN could be with 20yo ships...2 000 000t   :o

If there was no maintenance, yes.  Since there is, not a chance.  :)

[KWorld]

Even for the UK 100000 tons of production per (per what? We haven't even finalized the turn length!) ...

Per year.

With 4 turn in war time; 25 000t per turn.
---
That mean RN could be with 20yo ships...2 000 000t   :o

If there was no maintenance, yes.  Since there is, not a chance.  :)

As long as you have to spend money on ships as well, then whichever you have more of (money or IP) becomes your limiting factor.  In the case of the UK and the US (especially the 1870s-1880s OTL US), money is the limiting factor: there's plenty of industry to build more, but the money is not devoted to that.

[snip]

First off, that's a really nice list, but I think "you're jumping the gun" here.

Even for the UK 100000 tons of production per (per what? We haven't even finalized the turn length!) turn is a lot, they could build a whole world war fleet in a year! Now if that's what we want that is fine, however for the second rate powers production is too high imho (more than 3 dreadnoughts per turn!?). I think we should base their production on what they really need (and not much more), because that would be my definition of a second rate power (enough to do anything on its own if they have to, but better off buying some stuff and hardly any reserves for exports). For that we need the other costs first.

Same with money. We need to settle on the upkeep, then the other costs and lastly we calculate and define how much money the countries need.

As i said, I derived the UK numbers from N3 France with only significantly improved IP production on par with ensuring IP is available for foreign contracts. So these would (in theory) work for halfs, and could be scaled based on what we chose. Seeing as we will be sticking with the major componates of the N3 system, economies that worked for there will work for here and we can use that as a framework to get "right" values. As you note, these figures would cover everything, not just warships. What numbers would you propose?

Edit: If rewriting the rules proves to create to much strife and conflict, I will not hesitate to just install the N3 system as is so we can have a game as opposed to the continued rule-related bickering that has gone on for the last yearish.

[Nobody]

Edit: If rewriting the rules proves to create to much strife and conflict, I will not hesitate to just install the N3 system as is so we can have a game as opposed to the continued rule-related bickering that has gone on for the last yearish.

I belive we could go trough the major points fairly quick if we would start doing thinks in order, as proposed here.
So, could we please decide on my first point in that list - the turn length?

What numbers would you propose?

None until some things are settled.
Production wise, I think there should be a big gap between the main powers/exporters and mediors, which have just about enough to do anything they want. And than another big step to the importers. For the actual number we should look at how much country need to get to its current state (e.g. average over the last 5,10 or 20 years before game-start, PLUS some x0% extra). Also we have to make sure that the main industrial powers are rather short on (available) money so they can't use their big production unless they export.

[Delta Force]

I do think we should hold off on anything specific with the industrial bases and income rates until we know things like turn rate, upkeep costs, and purchases other than ships. The ratios of production between countries can probably be determined however.

As for a two million ton Royal Navy, they had hundreds of thousands of tons worth of dreadnought battleships and battlecruisers by the end of World War I. I think previous rounds have limited fleet sizes quite a bit relative to where they historically were (especially with 500,000 ton limits for entire navies, not just dreadnoughts). Even the Dutch had plans to acquire nearly 225,000 tons worth of dreadnoughts at one point.

[snip]

Or we could just use the N3 rules verbeatum. That is by far the simplest option.

[Tanthalas]

Or we could just use the N3 rules verbeatum. That is by far the simplest option.

No real objection to this proposal here, the only problem with N3 was that noone realy had enough BP, even the Super Powers (Rohan and France) had to maintain and rebuild their predreads just to keep suficent fleet numbers.  I think a say 50% boost acrossed the board to BP would have largley fixed that issue (trust me Rohan and France had more cash than they knew what to do with).

[Darman]

Or we could just use the N3 rules verbeatum. That is by far the simplest option.

No real objection to this proposal here, the only problem with N3 was that noone realy had enough BP, even the Super Powers (Rohan and France) had to maintain and rebuild their predreads just to keep suficent fleet numbers.  I think a say 50% boost acrossed the board to BP would have largley fixed that issue (trust me Rohan and France had more cash than they knew what to do with).

BP was the limiting factor back then.  For the major industrial powers we just need to change the numbers to make cash their limiting factor.  Force them to export.  And for the major and minor purchasers they should have some small BP/IP but lots of cash (relative to BP) so they can trade cash for BP (which is basically what purchasing ships from the major industrial powers is, trading cash for BP). 

[Delta Force]

What about taking most of the "extra" IP from the major ship exporters and giving it to NPC private shipyards instead? The US, UK, France, Germany, and (to a smaller extent) Italy can all host one. It would give the profits from selling such ships to the private yards (who can then expand their facilities based on how much money they make) and better represent the lassiez faire nature of military sales in the era.

[Darman]

What about taking most of the "extra" IP from the major ship exporters and giving it to NPC private shipyards instead? The US, UK, France, Germany, and (to a smaller extent) Italy can all host one. It would give the profits from selling such ships to the private yards (who can then expand their facilities based on how much money they make) and better represent the lassiez faire nature of military sales in the era.

Its an interesting idea.  And I completely agree with the "laissez-faire" nature of the armaments firms during this time period.  But I think we dont want the large nations to have to control the NPC shipyards too

[KWorld]

From what I've heard, though, there is a problem with the N3 rules in taht they didn't allow much growth, which would be problematic for Japan, Russia, and Italy.