Starting Nation economic strength

[snip]

So, seeing as we have the baseline economic system all but finalized and the starting era hemmed to 1900 give or take, I figured it was time to begin talking about the economic strength of the starting nations. My thoughts are below, running with OTL standards to place nations into categories. Note I have listed only the major powers that I outlined plus some others for comparison purpaces. These lists are by no means exhaustive. Should we need other nations, they could be worked into these categories.

The Major Industrial Powers: These nations have the ability to construct all there warships domestically and have surplus infrastructure and factories to fulfill orders from other nations. Nations in this category would be: The United Kingdom, The United States, Germany and France.

Minor Industrial Powers: These nations have the ability to build most of there own equipment, tho may need to look abroad to be able to build there largest ships or componates of them for a time. Nations in this category would be: Russia, Japan, Austria-Hungary and Italy.

Large purchasers: While at game start these nations would not have the ability to build many ships or very large ones at home, they are however flush with cash that will allow them to purchase ships abroad. Nations in this category would be: Spain (very upper end), Brazil, Argentina, Chile, and most other European nations.

Small purchasers: Nations not really capable of constructing warships domestically due to ether industrial considerations or political ones. Can afford the purchase of small ships from abroad. Nations in this category would be: China, Large semi-independent colonies of Major Industrial Powers (ie OTL Canada), Thailand, and similar states.

Thoguths on this? Once we get a basic pecking order, then we can begin assigning numbers.

[KWorld]

Looks OK, though I'd rate Spain as capable of building her own ships up to armored cruisers or pre-DNs in size.  China probably could move into the "can buy large ships" category if the government decides to do so.

[snip]

That is why I rate Spain at the top end of that category. With some post-start work, Spain would slide nicely into the Minor Industrial category. Just at start, with maybe recovering from the Spanish-American war, I feel that they would need to go shopping abroad for larger ships. This is not meant to comment on there ability to design them.

[Darman]

The Ottoman Empire might be able to build destroyers and other small craft.  Other than that they are a large purchaser with not a lot of cash.  The Ottomans need a lot of forts and CD batteries guarding the Bosphorus and Constantinople as well as strong land defenses on her borders with Austro-Hungary and Russia.  Plus population-suppression/peacekeeping/gendarmerie forces in her Balkans provinces.  Does the Ottoman Empire include Bulgaria, Romania, Greece, etc?

[Jefgte]

...Does the Ottoman Empire include Bulgaria, Romania, Greece, etc?

Yes, they does. Why not a medium power ?


Jef

[KWorld]

Historically, no.  If it were to be a player state and receive a bump upwards in its economy..... maybe?  :)

[Darman]

Historically, no.  If it were to be a player state and receive a bump upwards in its economy..... maybe?  :)

Historically would be fine in this case.  I'm controlling both Austria and the Ottomans.  They can bicker over the fate of Bulgaria, Romania, Greece, Serbia, etc.  Could be fun ;)

[Darman]

While I have it in mind I came up with roughly 109,000 tons of warships that Japan could build in 5 years.  The exact breakdown eludes me but it was no more than 25 warships total with fewer than 7 capital ships (battleships or armored cruisers).  That was using rough tonnages rather than exact tonnages and I overestimated the size of protected cruisers.  It still works out to under 30 warships if I design the lowest-tonnage warships.  I don't think that is too large a navy.  For an island-only nation it would be workable although preferable to be increasing my industrial base, naval facilities, and fleet to allow me to gather more colonies.  With 30 warships I could fight a war close to home, a defensive war.  I could maybe defend one colony or several colonies close together but at the risk of leaving my home islands open to attack.  To defend colonies the IJN would need more ships.  And those additional ships are the ones I'll design from scratch starting in 1900. 

[Tanthalas]

Snip just one mistake Italy should go in the upper tier for this period, my reasons for this are multi part.

1: Friedmans lists the Great Powers as Such GB, USA, Russia, Japan, Germany, AH, France, and Italy.  these were the powers with actual ocean going navies (and a reason to have them)

2: Pre 1900 Italy actualy produced a number of warships for what we are terming the Large purchasers. 

I will update my arguments after I finish totaling up production in Italy fron 1885-1900 (the ships I could realisticly expect to have in service)

[KWorld]

The reason Italy got put in the slot it did was that a fair number of it's naval guns were actually built in Britain, and most of the rest were produced to British designs by Italian branches of British companies.  This remained true up through the WWI period.

[Darman]

Japan should be a minor industrial power in 1900.  By 1905 probably not.  But at least for battleships Japan is using English shipyards and English designs in the 1890s

[KWorld]

Currently, Japan is so rated.   :)

[snip]

Snip just one mistake Italy should go in the upper tier for this period, my reasons for this are multi part. (Omitted for space)

KWorld is correct when he says that part of the reason is due to naval guns. Also, the figure is not soly reflectant on naval production. Do not think that because it is in the minor category that Italy will be unable to build its own warships. It will just have to be managed differently then a major power.

[Darman]

Japan is in the list of major powers as is Italy.  But Japan and Italy and Austro-Hungary should be rated minor powers for the purposes of the Sim.  That can and should change as time goes on and they accumulate colonies and industry.  The Hapsburgs might not change much though, 

[Tanthalas]

True enough Kworld (on the produced in Italy by british firms part anyway However Italy produced from 1885-1900 74 ships at roughly 350,000 tons for domestic consumption.  In the same period England produced in excess of 1 million tons for domestic consumption, not helping I know but the diferance is largley cruisers (england built a crapton of em), the US produced 45 ships at around 250,000 tons.  So while Italy definetly wasnt in the same weightclass as GB they were ahead (at this point) of the US.

The reason Italy got put in the slot it did was that a fair number of it's naval guns were actually built in Britain, and most of the rest were produced to British designs by Italian branches of British companies.  This remained true up through the WWI period.

Japan by Comparison had roughly 100,000 tons of Domestic produced ships

Japan should be a minor industrial power in 1900.  By 1905 probably not.  But at least for battleships Japan is using English shipyards and English designs in the 1890s