Starting Nation economic strength

[Darman]

From what I've heard, though, there is a problem with the N3 rules in taht they didn't allow much growth, which would be problematic for Japan, Russia, and Italy.

I agree

[snip]

From what I've heard, though, there is a problem with the N3 rules in taht they didn't allow much growth, which would be problematic for Japan, Russia, and Italy.

We can modified the costs of growth, that is a simple arrangement. Nations might not be able to pull off the expansions exactly as they did in OTL, after all this is a new timeline. No matter what the ruleset, all player nations (and some that are not to allow for growth) will be able to build or purchase warships. I know how not fun being stuck with a small nation is. An increase in the amount of BP for the large nations will ensure there will always be capacity for non-domestic orders.

[Tanthalas]

Having done much math based on the population numbers for Italy I have now (including aditional African holdings) I have arived at the folowing.  Keep in mind this is all done using the old spreadsheat, so some comprimises had to be made.

Start up Italia would have (in order to meet the proposed levels)
Pop: 43 spread about the "empire" (I actualy had to short myself 400K pop to make it come out even but no big thing)
IC: 197 spread about the "empire"
BP: 57.5

Now doing some quick math if we did a 10 year backlog for our startup nations that would give Italia Roughly 575 BP to spend or 575,000 tons of ships.  I think this system actualy works, furthermore we wouldnt have to do any growth for that 10 year period, simply use it as a build up period for our fleats.

[snip]

Dont forget, that BP would need to be used to build armies, forts, infra and other goodies

[Tanthalas]

Oh im still experimenting, forts were never somthing I put to much stock in during N2 and N3 (to bloody expensive honestly)

Dont forget, that BP would need to be used to build armies, forts, infra and other goodies

[Nobody]

Italy is supposed to be a medium sized self sustaining country, right? In that case I think 50+BP seem to be too much. From N3 (Orange) experience I would say that 20 BP are quite sufficient for building an, albeit small, Dreadnought-fleet. More should be imported, for that we should make sure potential importers have surplus cash.

[Darman]

Italy is supposed to be a medium sized self sustaining country, right? In that case I think 50+BP seem to be too much. From N3 (Orange) experience I would say that 20 BP are quite sufficient for building an, albeit small, Dreadnought-fleet. More should be imported, for that we should make sure potential importers have surplus cash.

I agree that as a self-sufficient country Italy should have enough to build a small to medium sized dreadnought navy.  You want more?  Build up your infrastructure or purchase it from abroad. 
This isn't just Japan Italy but every power except the exporting powers. 

[Tanthalas]

Italy held 6th place on the world Financial stage from 1870-1913 (far as I reserched) During the same time period Japan held 7th posistion but at an average of half Italys GDP (the diferance is more like 30% in 1913).  All along I have said Italia should be right behind the Major Powers which is Historicly where they fit.  57.5 BP hoewver is ALOT, I just took the number from Snips proposd finances section and converted it into BP, Realisticly I imagine 20-30 for the minor powers with Major powers having more (I would have to experiment to see how much I could actualy use at the given cash ammount)

Italy is supposed to be a medium sized self sustaining country, right? In that case I think 50+BP seem to be too much. From N3 (Orange) experience I would say that 20 BP are quite sufficient for building an, albeit small, Dreadnought-fleet. More should be imported, for that we should make sure potential importers have surplus cash.

I agree that as a self-sufficient country Italy should have enough to build a small to medium sized dreadnought navy.  You want more?  Build up your infrastructure or purchase it from abroad. 
This isn't just Japan Italy but every power except the exporting powers.

[snip]

Ya, those numbers I originaly posted are sort of out of wack. Dont use them for anything.

[Tanthalas]

Im actualy conducting an experiment with Italy right now.  Im figuring out how much BP I should "Reasonably" have.  How im dong this is using the Nverse 3 building rules im laying down all the ships Italy did in 1900 and puting enough bp into them to compleat them as per OTL (im curently at 24 but still diging through Conways and Friedmans)... oh and my cash is WAY to high basing off the original numbers, unless we are going with the revised upkeap in which case its about right (hmmm upkeap I dont have a fleet at all on that page)

Anyway once I finish you Ill post the numbers I come up with.

Ya, those numbers I originaly posted are sort of out of wack. Dont use them for anything.

[snip]

Ok, with some fiddling involving ratios of N3 France I have some numbers for the UK

Region	Population	IC	BP	Income
United Kingdom	38	118	52	$156.00
India	200	20	4	$76.00
Burma	9.606	5	1	$10.92
Canada (including Newfoundland	5.73	19.5	12	$25.23
Australia (including Papua	4.4	15	10	$19.40
Ceylon	3.7	3	0	$6.14
New Zealand	0.967	4	1	$4.97
Malay (incd Straits)	0.955	2	0	$2.96
Jamaca	0.82	1	0	$1.82
Hong Kong	0.325	5	1	$5.33
Trinidad and Tobago	0.32	1	0	$1.32
North Borneo	0.3	1	0	$1.30
British Guiana	0.3	1	0	$1.30
Cyprus	0.126	1	0	$1.13
Barbados	0.182	1	0	$1.18
Total	265.731	197.5	81	$314.99

IC for a given region (aside from India and the sub-million people colonies) was calculated via the Pop:IC ratio from N3 France for both the UK proper and the remaining colonies. BP was N3 France doubled, and assigned somewhat at random. Thoughts?

[Nobody]

You want to keep the old income-function?

[snip]

You want to keep the old income-function?

It works, and no player has screamed "its broken". Also, per here, that part of the rules is not up for discution anymore. I am fine with tweaking (and want to) the way growth works within the system, but I feel that modifications to the system beyond that count as wholesale change of the system and would unnecessarily delay the start of the game.

[Tanthalas]

OK, what I have thus far.  All based on N3 rules so no more than 50% of my budget on military yada yada yada.  I also used N3 naval maintnence rules and army upkeap rules.  I think this is realistic for Italia.

	Population	BP	IC	Revenue
Italy	33.4	24	118	151.4
Egypt	7	0	20	27
Sudan	1	0	2	3
Somaliland	1	0	2	3
Eritrea	0.5	0	2	2.5
Libya	0.5	0	2	2.5
Total:	43.4	24	146	189.4

the 24 BP is an absolute minimum number, but I would accept it for startup purposes.

[snip]

OK, what I have thus far.  All based on N3 rules so no more than 50% of my budget on military yada yada yada.  I also used N3 naval maintnence rules and army upkeap rules.  I think this is realistic for Italia.

	Population	BP	IC	Revenue
Italy	33.4	24	118	151.4
Egypt	7	0	20	27
Sudan	1	0	2	3
Somaliland	1	0	2	3
Eritrea	0.5	0	2	2.5
Libya	0.5	0	2	2.5
Total:	43.4	24	146	189.4

the 24 BP is an absolute minimum number, but I would accept it for startup purposes.

IM a bit "meh" about these. Seems a bit to high on income, shave some IC off of Italy proper. BP would be less then 20 I think, do know that you would be able to order ships from elswhere much easyer then N3. I would really like to wait until the UK numbers are final before really getting into other nations.