Various thoughts and ideas

[snip]

Time and Turns:
I agree with the need for more turns. I think, unlike snip, that 3 turns is ok and we don't need 4. If we are talking about seasons that matter there's really no need for 4. We can split the seasons in 3 portions easily (Winter, Spring, Summer + Fall). To balance the time, winter would extend a bit into Fall and Spring would extend a bit into Summer. However, in this format the seasonal difficulties can be well simulated IMO.

Economics:
I like Nobody's idea but there needs to be greater abstraction IMO. However I don't endorse the old 2-tier system of IC/BP in N3 because I thought it rather poorly simulated economics. It needs to be possible to grow the economy of a nation quickly and even overheat it somewhat like in Supreme Ruler Cold War.

I'll think of something and propose it over the labor day weekend.

Infrastructure and Support:
I agree that the draft limit for harbors is a good idea.

As for rails ad other transportation, I think it would be sufficient to divide the map into general regions (with a rule regarding their minimum and maximum approximate size) and represent infrastructure as levels. We could also represent it as a number which we model onto a decaying function but I presume that would be too much work.

Technology:
I agree with premise. My opinion on technology is that it should be a gradual tech tree rather than the N3 system of hard dates for researching certain techs. Rather than time unlocking technology, having technology time exponentially increase as you go deeper into the field would be a good counter to people rushing for a technology due to hindsightis. This works the opposite way too so further behind countries can tech faster.

In addition, that could support cooperative research agreements in which countries can decide to research a tech together and shorten it but having to spend much more money jointly. This should replace things like tech buying that happened in N3.

Shipbuilding:
I like the idea of requiring component based construction. Rather than building a ship, we thing of it as the sum of it's parts. If the parts cannot be made in that country they would have to buy it (like turbines).

Land Warfare:
I think we would have to go into more detail if we were simming land battles - but I think we aren't doing land battles so the point is moot.

Countries:
I think assigning regions risk style like in N3's start-up would be good. Provided it had a condition - you can only claim territory that is directly connected to your existing regions by land. So no weird nations like New Switzerland in N3 (Alaska, Australia and islands in Pacific). The core of those nations should be historical cores so we have nations vaguely resembling real ones, not complete hand-wavium ones.

Im not really set on a number of turns per year. Will have to see what works.

My reason for wanting to use the IC/BP system with modifications is that it is a known quantity. For its flaws, it works. What flaws it does have can be fixed/minimised. I do not want to spend the time to develop a new system or have one developed because the time it will take could very well kill off the sim, again.

No railroads/transport networks/infrastructure as independent entities. Tying it to IC (or whatever it gets called) allows for the most simplicity while still allowing comparison between two regions.

I am open to reworking how Tech is handled. Give me a more detailed proposal if you would.

I think that roping shipbuilding restrictions into tech (ie, Russia does not have the ability to build 20000SHP turbines and needs them for the latest ship. They buy them from the UK as a result) would be the best way of doing this. Tracking individual factories and such is to detailed, and will not happen.

Countries will be historical, with some modifications as needed for game balance. Doing rounds of picking territory like you sugest will take to much time, which could once again kill the sim before it starts.

[Desertfox]

Got an idea, why not tie tech to economy. Say if using the BP/IC model, you delegate a certain number of IC's to techs.

Say I have 20 IC, I split them up, say 5 to Turbines, 4 to Capital Ship Design, 3 to Guns, rest spread around. Say no one else has more than 4 to Turbines, then I would be the leader in that field, and would remain so till someone added more ICs to their turbines. Now say someone has 5 for Capital ships, they get dreadnoughts first, but Im close behind, so can build them say a year after first person. Now say I didnt dedicate any to torpedoes, well then will have to import them from outside as wont be able to build even really basic ones. And so on. Not sure I made myself clear.

[snip]

Interesting idea Foxy, Im sort of fond of it. Can you flesh it out more so I have a better idea of how such a system would work? Personaly, I would like it tied to BP, but the concept is quite promissing.

[Nobody]

Economics
My idea could probably be simplified to a two based system.
Concerning the N3 system there are at least 2 things I would like to revise:

• growth: investing into the production was economically a bad idea, new factories would never ever return their cost. I would also like a more automatic growth
• BP: in N3 BPs were too valuable to be not used. I would like that to be different. The BPs should represent a potential that can be used if things get hot but are rarely used. It should also be interesting to not have that big industry (e.g. because making cash is easier and makes one more flexible)

Harbors
Shouldn't be too expansive. Cost based on number_of_ships*max_ship_size. Upkeep is paid for mostly through the ships themselves.

Ship Upkeep
The more I think about it the better I find an upkeep based on two things:

• fuel consumption
  
• ship size/crew
  I think I can make an example showing that it's not too difficult. But yes you will have to copy a few more SpringSharp numbers than only the size, but that's it.
  in addition to that, the need to overhaul ships as in N3.
  
  Technology and Shipbuilding
  should be closely tied together.
  Developing something first should be most expansive. For every nation that finishes it, it gets cheaper. It get also cheaper by using it.
  I propose no buying of technology or if than only to speed up own efforts.
  I would like to distinguish between the six types of propulsion SpringSharp has to offer. I know how to do it, now I "only" have to persuade you.
  Other things I would like to see:
  
• basic shipbuilding techs: Iron, Steel, partially welded and fully welded hulls.
  
• the need to "unlock" bigger (and smaller) hulls
  
• power limits
  
  Land Warfare
  Even if we don't want it, we should have some basics. So that if some blockheads really go against each other a mod can point there to back up his final decision.
  
  @Desertfox: Interesting (alternate) idea! Not entirely compatible with my tech tree though and i would use BPs.

[snip]

Concerning the N3 system there are at least 2 things I would like to revise:
growth: investing into the production was economically a bad idea, new factories would never ever return their cost. I would also like a more automatic growth
BP: in N3 BPs were too valuable to be not used. I would like that to be different. The BPs should represent a potential that can be used if things get hot but are rarely used. It should also be interesting to not have that big industry (e.g. because making cash is easier and makes one more flexible)

Can you provide some more examples of how these would work? As I said before, I really dont want to develop a new system or have a new one developed. The N3 system works, for better or worse. I am compleatly open to tweeking and ajusting aspects, but the N3 ruleset will be the framework.

harbors: I like that little equation. Simple and to the point. :)

Ship upkeep: I would really like to keep just one "currency" tonnage. It makes bookkeeping simple, even if only a few more numbers are needed.

Tech: Show me (and the rest of us) what you have in mind for engeins. I think there is a way to mesh Foxy's system and a teired tree. (see below) I like the tech getting cheaper as more aquier it, and think it will work well. I'm not enthused about adding building techneques, but if we decide to start very early (ie, not the close to Dreadnaught era that currently leads the way) I could be convinced otherwise. I dont know what you mean by "unlock" hulls. Can you explain this a bit more? (I will note I am not a fan of what is implied, but want to hear the pitch before I make up my mind)

Land warfare: As stated, all conflicts must be scripted or otherwise resolved between the involved parties. Should they chose to script it, they will have to decide how to do such. I really dont want to get involved unless needed.


My thoughts on tech are this. Let me know if anyone needs some more detail on parts of it. Foxy, this I how I would imagine your system working.

There would be a number of catagories (ie. Ship Archatecture, Naval Guns, etc.) Each of these catagories would have several milestones in it (ie. All-big-gun Battleships and Armored Cruisers, Superheavy Shells, etc.) Each milestone would have a point value assigned to it. Nations would put points to each catagory, tho there would be enough catagories or few enough points that one nation could not lead in all. Once a nation meets the requiered number of points for reaching a milestone, they can then use tech that the milestone unlocks. Each nation that reaches the milestone decreases the points needed for other nations to hit the milestone.

Thoughts?

[Logi]

I only see 9 votes in that poll. Im sure some have lent there opinon who have not staked a country yet.

Where do we stake a country? :-\

[Darman]

I only see 9 votes in that poll. Im sure some have lent there opinon who have not staked a country yet.

Where do we stake a country? :-\

Just take a hatchet, cut a branch off a tree, sharpen it, and stab the ground where you wish to claim it....

[snip]

The ones that still need to be filled out of the Major Powers are

Russia
Spain/Iberia (in effect the same, or close enough for army work)
Italy

Take your pick.

[Desertfox]

This is how I see it working.
First I'd rather not tie it directly to the nation's manufacturing capacity (ie BP's), because innovation comes from many places, small countries such as Sweden have introduced high techs before other larger ones. In addition tying it to IC (or equivalent) will promote economic growth, as there will be an incentive to spend on such things.

So first we have a tech tree with fixed start dates.

Tech 1 (say Torpedoes)
Level 1
Level 2
...

Tech 2 (say Airplanes)
...

Tech 3 (say Turret Design)
...

Country 1 has say 10 IC, Country 2 has say 13 IC.

Country 1 distributes its IC as 7 torpedoes, 3 turret design

Country 2 distributes its IC as 4, 4, 4.

Because of investment in torpedoes C1 gets them automatically when they become available and levels up automatically. C2 will remain a level behind (cannot be same level) as the gap between the two countries is significant.  The inverse is true with aircraft, however C1 simply cannot build any aircraft no matter the date, until it builds an extra IC for aircraft. Now both countries are pretty evenly matched in Turret Design. C2 is the first one to level up, but C1 can level up to C2's level after a reasonable wait, say 1 year?

So country with highest level of investment, gets the technology first, depending on how close other countries are, decides when they can use it. Technology can't be sold like in N-verse 2.0, but you can sell finished products, so C2 would sell aircraft to C1, while C1 would sell torpedoes to C2.

You would not spend directly on tech, but rather on the economy. Each IC would then represent say a factory, or a research center, or say just people (ie Wright brothers, Tesla). Also IC's could be dedicated towards say gun sizes. You would need a dedicated IC for say ever gun size you have over 12", or 1 IC per every 2 gun sizes between 8" and 12" and so on.

Hope I made myself clear.

[snip]

I split some stuff of at Nobody's request. Please continue those threads in there proper place :)

Foxy, your thoughts are close to my own.

There would be a number of catagories (ie. Ship Archatecture, Naval Guns, etc.) Each of these catagories would have several milestones in it (ie. All-big-gun Battleships and Armored Cruisers, Superheavy Shells, etc.) Each milestone would have a point value assigned to it. Nations would put points to each catagory, tho there would be enough catagories or few enough points that one nation could not lead in all. Once a nation meets the requiered number of points for reaching a milestone, they can then use tech that the milestone unlocks. Each nation that reaches the milestone decreases the points needed for other nations to hit the milestone.

I will need to flesh out the math, but I think we are barking up the same tree (punny of me)

I would prefer to keep paying for guns and mountings on a separate basis with cash.

[Delta Force]

The ones that still need to be filled out of the Major Powers are

Russia
Spain/Iberia (in effect the same, or close enough for army work)
Italy

Take your pick.

I might be interested in Russia but I don't really know anything about their navy apart from the Russo-Japanese War era (which isn't that useful seeing as almost all the Russian doctrine, ships, and sailors who went into that did not come back out). Any suggestions for research?

[KWorld]

http://www.cityofart.net/bship/frames0.html


The good news is, if we start at 1905, the Imperial Russian Navy has gotten rid of (with the help, granted, of the Imperial Japanese Navy) of a bunch of ships of dubious design and construction.  Of course, that happens to leave the fleet a bit short (outside of the Black Sea Fleet, which didn't participate in the Russo-Japanese War), but at least you're not having to pay for some of those things......

[Logi]

My order of preference for staking a country is Russia then Iberia.

[snip]

By first-come-first-served, Delta gets Russia and Logi gets Spain/Iberia

[Desertfox]

Yeah I think we have the same basic idea.

I would prefer to keep paying for guns and mountings on a separate basis with cash.

Not suggesting the actual guns come from there, but that IC's be dedicated for the research of new types of guns. We had to pay similarly in N-verse 2.0 to develop new weapons.

Also there should be economic bonuses for un-delegated IC's. So technologically advanced countries would grow less rapidly than those less advanced. Also there would be penalties if you wanted to switch an IC from one tech to another. Say the IC would be offline for a year, this would represent say a factory converting from say making torpedoes to guns.