Final Econ rule- Question for the Players

[snip]

So, as a final addition for the econ rules, Carth and I have decided to add in a section dealing with the number of factories that may be pressent in a given port. However, in fairness to all of the nations at startup, we are going to be making a general cap for the homeland that is not tied to the number of ports. The numbers that have popped up in our talks are above, please share your opinion on the what the number should be. The poll will be open for three days.

[Delta Force]

I thought that things were annual before I finished writing this, but depending on how the quarters are done (true quarters or biannual) it might still hold true. In fact, the reverse might hold true in that we would end up having way too much naval production per year. We would actually end up "replacing" tonnage far too quickly than my fears about it being replaced far too slowly. Hopefully someone can help clear this whole thing up, but here is what I have:

I think we might actually want to have more factories. If you reach 500,000 tons in production you will need at least 34 factories just to maintain the fleet (with the 50% production bonus for being dedicated to the task). If we reduce upkeep to 5% of production costs that leaves 17 factories for naval maintenance and 33 for everything else. Assuming a maximum production of around 33,333 tons per year (everything 15 years old or newer) that would be at least 23 factories. At least 7 factories are also going to be required for the minimum infrastructure, so that leaves 3 for everything else.

Assuming a full navy and air force, that everything else can be up to 4 production points for the army upkeep and 9 for the air force upkeep (or as low as 5.2). That would leave between -2 and -10 points. If you do a 25 year building program it gets down to 13 factories for construction and 13 for everything else, which doesn't leave room for any land and air unit construction in the maximum scenario. Also consider that at that point only 20,000 tons is being laid down per year. I think that is below the levels that a minor naval power like Austria-Hungary was producing historically during the pre-dreadnought era. If we go to the dreadnought era that is basically a small dreadnought every year as the only thing possible. With the current rules, a 500,000 ton ship navy is virtually impossible to actually build up to.

In conclusion, what if we were to do over 50 factories? I think that somewhere between 52 and 55 would be nice as it would allow for everyone to realistically reach their unit cap but also allow for those who choose to go more slowly to build up our industrial base more quickly.

[Carthaginian]

Fifty is top end.
You want more, go out and found colonies.
The question here isn't how big do you want to let your homeland get- it's how faast do you want to expand.

[Delta Force]

I vote 50 then, but I think we need to look at upkeep costs. Otherwise we will likely end up with quite small navies for a while.

[Delta Force]

Okay, sorry for the double post, but how many quarters will we have per year anyways? I might actually want to revise my vote downwards because we could actually end up with too much production.

[Nobody]

I don't think there should be "hard cap". But a "soft cap" growing slower than what would be expected if someone 'pushed' to get more factories would be appropriate.

[KWorld]

When you say "Homeland", what's the definition?  The region bounded by your cities at game start?


Anyway, Delta, at least for now (barring an update later) the maintenance cost for ships has been reduced to 2.5% per quarter, of which there are 4 quarters per year.  The maintenance cost for armies hasn't been officially changed at this point.

[Walter]

I don't think there should be "hard cap". But a "soft cap" growing slower than what would be expected if someone 'pushed' to get more factories would be appropriate.

You're suggesting something along the lines of up to x factories it is 100 PP per factory and then an extra 10 PP for every additional factory built within the territory that takes it beyond x factories?

[Nobody]

I don't think there should be "hard cap". But a "soft cap" growing slower than what would be expected if someone 'pushed' to get more factories would be appropriate.

You're suggesting something along the lines of up to x factories it is 100 PP per factory and then an extra 10 PP for every additional factory built within the territory that takes it beyond x factories?

No, I suggest a slowly growing limit.

[Delta Force]

I think that as the rules are written now that 50 factories would result in too much ship production. I know that I can't change it in the poll, but please consider one vote to have changed from 50 to 40.

[Walter]

If you think that you can spend 50,000 tons per quarter to build ships with those 50 factories, then I have bad news for you: You can't.

The more ships you build, the more maintenance you'll have to pay. If you increase your army and airforce, the maintenance will increase as well. With the original navy maintenance of 10%, the startup 500,000 tons would have required 50 factories for maintenance alone and impossible to cover with the 32 factories we were going to start out with. Now that that has been lowered to 2.5%, you still need 12.5 factories for the navy maintenance alone to cover that 500,000 ton navy. That's 40% of the combined output of your 32 factories. Add 8 Army units and 6 Air Force units and you'll be needed anything between 16.9 and 20.7 factories (52-65%) just to pay for maintenance. I think that once you'll get to 50 factories, maintenance will still take up some 50-70% of your output.

[Delta Force]

If you think that you can spend 50,000 tons per quarter to build ships with those 50 factories, then I have bad news for you: You can't.

The more ships you build, the more maintenance you'll have to pay. If you increase your army and airforce, the maintenance will increase as well. With the original navy maintenance of 10%, the startup 500,000 tons would have required 50 factories for maintenance alone and impossible to cover with the 32 factories we were going to start out with. Now that that has been lowered to 2.5%, you still need 12.5 factories for the navy maintenance alone to cover that 500,000 ton navy. That's 40% of the combined output of your 32 factories. Add 8 Army units and 6 Air Force units and you'll be needed anything between 16.9 and 20.7 factories (52-65%) just to pay for maintenance. I think that once you'll get to 50 factories, maintenance will still take up some 50-70% of your output.

That still leaves a very large amount for shipbuilding. 20,000 tons per quarter means you can fully replace shipping in 6.25 years.

[Carthaginian]

Instead of this making more factories possible, what it is making me think is that the starting fleets and production might be too high altogether.

[Walter]

I don't know. You still need to produce 1800 PP in order to get to 50 factories to begin with. Assuming that you need 18 factories for maintenance and dedicate the remaining factories you have to produce nothing but IPPs for the factories. It'll take you 17 years to get to 50 factories (and an outdated fleet). Considering all the extra naval units, army units and aviation units you'll be building and the increased maintenance that'll give you, it's going to take a heck of a lot longer for you to get to the point where you will have 20 PP available per quarter to build. Even then, you're not going to spend all those 20 PPs on ships. By the time you have the ability to fully replace shipping in 6.25 years, your citizens of 1910 will either be retired or in a grave.

Edit: damn! Typing all that makes me feel a lot older all of a sudden.  :o

[Walter]

Instead of this making more factories possible, what it is making me think is that the starting fleets and production might be too high altogether.

Depends on what production abilities you have in mind. After subtracting maintenance, you're left with 14-18 PP you can use to build other stuff, depending on what you start out with. I already have thrown my ships through excel and managed to get something I like with the 500,000 tons after a lot of messing around. I'm not really in the mood to waste more of my time messing around with it again to be honest.