Torpedo Boat and Light Combatant Rules

[snip]

Maybe just dropping it for pre-startup TBs and DDs, or ships under a set tonnage (ex. 500t normal)? Do recall that the trial calculator was originally intended for light displacement.

[Walter]

Wiki indicates that Turbinia's top speed was 34.5 knots. How much slower would she be with a pair of torpedoes?

[Delta Force]

I know that trial speeds are wildly optimistic, but I don't think that torpedo boats of 1895 managed to go anywhere near 30 knots even during their trials. 24+ knots to get into the light and fast category is very hard to get seeing as many torpedo boats of the 1890s were within a few knots of that base speed even in the best of conditions. Making all ships have to reach 24+ knots in effect means the 1895 torpedo boats are reaching speeds of nearly 30 knots for their trials.

So, should the Trial Speed item be dropped entirely?
http://www.warshipsww2.eu/lode.php?language=E&period=&idtrida=2066

This would be considered if people think it appropriate.

I suppose ships being unable to reach 30+ knots is really more of the exception than the rule. You are right to point out that around the turn of the century torpedo boats started to near speeds closer to 30 knots. Perhaps we should have some kind of cutoff date for the 24 knots rule to come into effect? I doubt that 1895 ships are going to be able to reach it, but by 1910, if the current system makes it possible, we should have torpedo boats that are able to surpass 30 knots quite easily.

[Carthaginian]

Maybe just dropping it for pre-startup TBs and DDs, or ships under a set tonnage (ex. 500t normal)? Do recall that the trial calculator was originally intended for light displacement.

My intent for trial speed is that the service speed can be <24 kts as long as the trial speed is >24 kts.
This is the whole reasoning behind bringing trial speed in anyway.
When simming the oddball Hayabusa, I noted that the Service Speed was in line with the other TB speeds on the page, but that the Trial Speed was in line with the one given by G's calculator. This made me think that the speed given for it was trial, while the slower speed for other vessels were service speeds.

[Delta Force]

Maybe just dropping it for pre-startup TBs and DDs, or ships under a set tonnage (ex. 500t normal)? Do recall that the trial calculator was originally intended for light displacement.

My intent for trial speed is that the service speed can be <24 kts as long as the trial speed is >24 kts.
This is the whole reasoning behind bringing trial speed in anyway.
When simming the oddball Hayabusa, I noted that the Service Speed was in line with the other TB speeds on the page, but that the Trial Speed was in line with the one given by G's calculator. This made me think that the speed given for it was trial, while the slower speed for other vessels were service speeds.

That is something I think should happen, I was concerned that they had to hit at least 24 knots in SpringSharp. If you cannot hit 24 knots you do not really have a torpedo boat.

[Jefgte]

DD & TS didn't need added rules.

We have enough constraints:
- Cross sectionnal limit to 0.5
- Date - 1901 is "better" than 1896... of course!!!
- Engine technos
- Coal... with 10% oil.

We can just made very small adjustements for our personnal conception.

The only rule that we could add is the minimal speed: 24kts


Jef

[Delta Force]

DD & TS didn't need added rules.

We have enough constraints:
- Cross sectionnal limit to 0.5
- Date - 1901 is "better" than 1896... of course!!!
- Engine technos
- Coal... with 10% oil.

We can just made very small adjustements for our personnal conception.

The only rule that we could add is the minimal speed: 24kts


Jef

The problem with a simple speed requirement is that while 24 knots might be a good speed for an early torpedo boat, in a few years that will be easily achievable by even a heavily armed gunboat. Also, at 24 knots 25% of the best case speed will be coming from the "bonus" speed.

[snip]

Jef, surly you remember the ultra-light cruisers that got built under the DD rules in N3. I only read the relevant threads and saw the designs later as it was before my time, but that is not something I want to have happen again.

[Desertfox]

As on of those guilty of DD cruisers, I gotta say that even some of them would have been able to use the speed boost.

[snip]

Comments as a player/rulemaker:
Without being able to test things (at work with a non-SS equipped comp), 55% seems about right to me. With the desire on my end to keep things rule-light, I would propose that we adopt the 55% of normal displacement ,how it is displayed in the weight breakdown section of SS reports, as a component of the rules for DDs and other "light fast combatants" in place of the 24knts floor. I think being able to game the system to make ultra-light cruisers would be hard if not imposible, and with that in mind I invite someone (*cough*Foxy*cough*) to try and break this proposal. I will try as well when I have a comp with SS available this evening.

Comment as a mod:
Great discussion here guys. Makes me feel that Carth and I made the right call with the rule setup. Keep up the great work!

[Jefgte]

Jef, surly you remember the ultra-light cruisers that got built under the DD rules in N3. I only read the relevant threads and saw the designs later as it was before my time, but that is not something I want to have happen again.

N3- Spakreuzer...

CL use 6" gun a big DD use not.
You forget too TB, DD & CL displacement min & max allowed in each category.
Copnfusion is not possible.

Note, I have posted last week DE1-1909-995t-10x100+4TTx450-24kts-without reaction.
This DE is made to protect BBs & ECs vs DDs actions. That's all.

Jef

[Desertfox]

Quick and dirty, mini-cruiser, machinery at 62%:


Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1910

Displacement:
   1,056 t light; 1,100 t standard; 1,152 t normal; 1,194 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (300.00 ft / 300.00 ft) x 28.00 ft x (12.00 / 12.28 ft)
   (91.44 m / 91.44 m) x 8.53 m  x (3.66 / 3.74 m)

Armament:
      4 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1910 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 252 lbs / 114 kg

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 37,242 shp / 27,782 Kw = 34.00 kts
   Range 1,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 94 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   98 - 128

Cost:
   £0.149 million / $0.598 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 38 tons, 3.3 %
      - Guns: 38 tons, 3.3 %
   Machinery: 718 tons, 62.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 299 tons, 26.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 96 tons, 8.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     214 lbs / 97 Kg = 3.4 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.39
   Metacentric height 1.3 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 10.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.29
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.81

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.400 / 0.405
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.71 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 70 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  15.00 ft / 4.57 m,  15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  15.00 ft / 4.57 m,  11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  11.00 ft / 3.35 m,  11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  11.00 ft / 3.35 m,  11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Average freeboard:      12.40 ft / 3.78 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 211.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 5,171 Square feet or 480 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 33 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 30 lbs/sq ft or 144 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.48
      - Longitudinal: 2.10
      - Overall: 0.56
   Extremely poor machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

[Jefgte]

55% min for the engines ?

Jef

[Jefgte]

This is not a cruiser Foxy, the mini displacement required in the rules for a cruiser is 3000t

Section 5.03   Light Cruisers
   A Light Cruiser, shall for the purposes of this treaty, heretofore be classified by the following qualifications. Any ship meeting one of these qualifications shall be termed a Medium Cruiser.
(a)   a vessel with four or more guns of no greater than 6.1"/155mm.
(b)   a vessel with no more than two guns of 7.64"/180mm, and which mounts an equal or greater number of secondary guns greater than 6.1"/155mm.
(c)   a vessel of more than 3,000 tons normal load.
A Light Cruiser may not in any way exceed the following qualifications.
(a)   a vessel with a displacement of greater than 6,000 tons normal load.
(b)   no aircraft may be embarked in any way aboard a light cruiser.
 

This is a DD

[snip]

Jef, Foxy's attempting to produce a mini-cruiser that can be built within the DD ruleset. This has no bearing on the treaty text. Yes, my proposal would have the DD rules contain a min of 55% of total wieght for engines.

Foxy, While that is quite a powerful DD there are a few issues with it. Cross sectional is below .50 and some of her other charicteristcs are questionable at best. Can you trim the engines to 55% of the displacement and see what comes out?