Colonial Navy

[Carthaginian]

Ok, guys... here is the 'Mod' issue I have with the 'Save & Reload' tactic:
"Did he save and reload, or did he just SAY he did?"
If the Misc Weight is included, I KNOW that you have accounted for things.
If the Misc Weight is NOT included, I have no way of knowing short of simming the ship myself... and I don't have that kind of time. So that means that I no longer have to just look at things and see if the make sense, I have to sim each and every design- possibly making the changes in exactly the same order that you did- to see if the design works. That is A LOT of moderating, guys- a whole damn pisspot full.

So, we have an honor issue coming into play here and we ALL have to make a decision. This isn't a decision for moderators only; that's for damn sure. This is something that will effect the entire community in a very powerful way. So, I'm not going to think up an answer to this question... I am, instead, going to draw up an appropriate sentencing guideline for cheating (and Hammurabi will be proud, wherever he is). Then, the forum as a whole can vote on the issue- pick your poison, Proof or Trust.

Snip and I will work out what we feel is appropriate for punishment.
Ya'll work out in your heads whether Trust or Proof is the foundation of this version of N-verse.
Then, everyone here will- mods included- will vote on the issue... one vote to the man, as this isn't a 'Fighting, Chasing or Being Chased' kind of issue. This vote will have massive impact on how the sim is run as well: it's going to show me the kind of 'tone' people want the sim to take.
So, consider your position on this one very, very hard.

[Delta Force]

Do ships come with enough lifeboats for their crew (for ships where it would make sense, like BBs) or do we have to assign weights for them?

[Jefgte]

Do ships come with enough lifeboats for their crew (for ships where it would make sense, like BBs) or do we have to assign weights for them?

...assign weights for them

look at  a, b & c

"
Miscellaneous Weights  shall be required as follows:
1.) Torpedoes: for each torpedo, as laid out by Springsharp; this includes both torpedoes in the tube and reloads, whether above or below deck. Make sure weight allotted for reloads is allocated in the proper location!
2.) Mines: for each mine, as laid out in the Mine Rules section (small = 500 lbs, medium = 1000 lbs, heavy = 1500 lbs). Minelaying equipment is 1 ton per 10 mines, and minesweeping gear is 10 tons per 1000 tons of ship displacement (min. 10 tons).
3.) Embarked Personnel: any personnel over the Crew Requirement as stated by Springsharp will be accounted for with 4 tons per person for long-term deployment . For vessels like landing craft, there will be 1 ton per 4 combat-ready troops.
4.) Extra Ship's Boats: extra small craft may be carried on a ship to facilitate landings or passenger transfers. 'Lifeboats' are assumed to be equipped with the following items: a sail and mast, 1/2 gallon of water per person for 2 days, 2 days survival rations (think 'jerky and hardtack') per person, a compass, a sextant, a lantern, a bailer, a sea anchor, 100' of rope and a pair of oars for every 10' of length. A 'Steam Launch' contains all the items of a lifeboat and enough coal to travel 25 nautical miles.
    (a) Large lifeboats, which may accommodate 50 people (in fair weather) are 2 tons each and 60' long.
    (b) Small lifeboats, which may accommodate 24 people (in fair weather) are 1 tons each and 30' long.
    (c) Steam launches, which may accommodate 30 people (in fair weather) are 3 tons each and 60' long.
"

[snip]

Only if they are over normal compliment. Ships fittings are presumed to carry boats for the listed crew numbers. That section of the rules is with regard to boats outside of that, such as landing craft.

[Delta Force]

Here is a coastal battleship. It is a very close copy of the Austro-Hungarian Monarch class, although with slightly different dimensions and with an altered armor configuration.

1895 Coastal Battleship, Colonial Navy BBL laid down 1895



Displacement:
   5,416 t light; 5,651 t standard; 6,000 t normal; 6,280 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (328.08 ft / 328.08 ft) x 56.59 ft x (20.57 / 21.32 ft)
   (100.00 m / 100.00 m) x 17.25 m  x (6.27 / 6.50 m)

Armament:
      4 - 9.45" / 240 mm 40.0 cal guns - 363.76lbs / 165.00kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1895 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      6 - 5.91" / 150 mm 40.0 cal guns - 88.18lbs / 40.00kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1895 Model
     6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      14 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 3.86lbs / 1.75kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1895 Model
     14 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      14 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 2,038 lbs / 924 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.87" / 200 mm   213.25 ft / 65.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   4.72" / 120 mm   114.83 ft / 35.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.0" / 280 mm   6.30" / 160 mm      9.45" / 240 mm
   2nd:   2.95" / 75 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1.97" / 50 mm
   Forecastle: 1.97" / 50 mm  Quarter deck: 1.97" / 50 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 9.45" / 240 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 5,395 ihp / 4,024 Kw = 16.00 kts
   Range 2,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 630 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   340 - 443

Cost:
   £0.480 million / $1.920 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 409 tons, 6.8 %
      - Guns: 409 tons, 6.8 %
   Armour: 2,456 tons, 40.9 %
      - Belts: 1,545 tons, 25.8 %
      - Armament: 368 tons, 6.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 476 tons, 7.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 67 tons, 1.1 %
   Machinery: 914 tons, 15.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,637 tons, 27.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 585 tons, 9.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     7,238 lbs / 3,283 Kg = 17.2 x 9.4 " / 240 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.26
   Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 13.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.33
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.23

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / 0.555
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.80 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.11 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -15.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      9.84 ft / 3.00 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 74.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 71.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 12,958 Square feet or 1,204 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 101 lbs/sq ft or 493 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.67
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Edit: Added picture.

[Jefgte]

If you want to increase the speed to 18kts, to work with the BBs, change the category from CBB to AC.

Jef  ;)

[Delta Force]

If you want to increase the speed to 18kts, to work with the BBs, change the category from CBB to AC.

Jef  ;)

Pre-dreadnoughts were rather slow, so it could actually fit in rather well with its contemporaries even at only 16 knots. My battleships of 1895 to 1900 are going to be based on the Kaiser Frederich III class of the Imperial German Navy, and those only got up to 17.5 knots.

On a related note, does anyone have any detailed information regarding the armor and location of the 8.8 cm casemate guns on the Kaiser Frederich III class pre-dreadnoughts? I've tried all my usual sources and have drawn a blank on that.

Edit: Actually, finding information about the location of smaller secondaries is proving to be very difficult. Any advice on where to go for information, or a general "rule of thumb" that can used when dealing with them?

[KWorld]

Here's a link to a site with a decent picture of that ship: http://www.german-navy.de/hochseeflotte/ships/battleships/kaiserfriedrich/index.html  In general, smaller secondaries were either higher up in the ship, or further out on the ends, but there were exceptions to that rule.  Some countries mounted small secondaries atop turrets, others didn't.

[Walter]

I simmed my Kaiser Frederich III clone (with 10" guns instead of 9.4" guns) like this:
http://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,5828.msg75974.html#msg75974

Odd thing is that Jane's indicates on the sideview picture that the 4 forward 8.8cm guns are in casemates and the rest are deck mounts but the topview picture shows them all to be deck mounts. The german navy link above also indicates that all those guns are in deck mounts. According to Jane's, there should also be twelve 1 pdr guns aboard the Kaiser Frederich III, but I have no idea where they are located.

[Delta Force]

So when would you say that the 9.4 inch gun is too weak for use on battleship construction as a primary/secondary armament? It seems to have a major rate of fire advantage until around 1905 or so and the armor penetration seems adequate for the type and thickness of armor is it going up against on battleships until around 1900. Might it be worth retaining as a secondary on semi-dreadnoughts (as opposed to the 10 inch) due to its higher rates of fire and good all around abilities against lighter ship types? I do not know as much about how pre-dreadnoughts worked in practice with the secondaries (I know a lot of theories that people had in the contemporary period on how people thought they should work), should the focus be on rate of fire and adequate penetration or on being able throw out a few heavy shells able to cause more serious damage to heavily armored ships?

[Delta Force]

A copy of the Kaiser Friedrich III class battleship, featuring minor design changes as with the Monarch class copy.

1895 Battleship, Colonial Navy BB laid down 1895



Displacement:
   9,752 t light; 10,210 t standard; 10,800 t normal; 11,273 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (410.11 ft / 410.11 ft) x 66.93 ft x (25.92 / 26.80 ft)
   (125.00 m / 125.00 m) x 20.40 m  x (7.90 / 8.17 m)

Armament:
      4 - 9.45" / 240 mm 40.0 cal guns - 363.76lbs / 165.00kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1895 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      6 - 5.91" / 150 mm 40.0 cal guns - 88.18lbs / 40.00kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1895 Model
     6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      10 - 5.91" / 150 mm 40.0 cal guns - 88.18lbs / 40.00kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1895 Model
     10 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      9 raised mounts
      14 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 35.0 cal guns - 30.86lbs / 14.00kg shells, 250 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1895 Model
     14 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      14 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 3,298 lbs / 1,496 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   265.75 ft / 81.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm   144.36 ft / 44.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.0" / 280 mm   6.30" / 160 mm      9.45" / 240 mm
   2nd:   5.91" / 150 mm   2.95" / 75 mm      2.95" / 75 mm
   3rd:   5.91" / 150 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 2.56" / 65 mm
   Forecastle: 2.56" / 65 mm  Quarter deck: 2.56" / 65 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 9.84" / 250 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 11,234 ihp / 8,381 Kw = 18.00 kts
   Range 2,400nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,063 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   529 - 688

Cost:
   £0.845 million / $3.379 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 627 tons, 5.8 %
      - Guns: 627 tons, 5.8 %
   Armour: 4,261 tons, 39.5 %
      - Belts: 2,588 tons, 24.0 %
      - Armament: 672 tons, 6.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 898 tons, 8.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 104 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,904 tons, 17.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,959 tons, 27.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,049 tons, 9.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     13,069 lbs / 5,928 Kg = 31.0 x 9.4 " / 240 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.27
   Metacentric height 4.2 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 13.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.39
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.50

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.531 / 0.536
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.13 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20.25 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -15.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Forward deck:   40.00 %,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Aft deck:   25.00 %,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      13.78 ft / 4.20 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 94.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 18,825 Square feet or 1,749 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 118 lbs/sq ft or 576 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.90
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Delta Force]

A Braunschweig class copy that for once manages to come in under the historical tonnage even with a higher speed and more coal.

1901 Battleship, Colonial Navy BB laid down 1901



Displacement:
   12,184 t light; 12,770 t standard; 13,800 t normal; 14,623 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (418.96 ft / 418.96 ft) x 72.83 ft x (26.57 / 27.87 ft)
   (127.70 m / 127.70 m) x 22.20 m  x (8.10 / 8.50 m)

Armament:
      4 - 11.02" / 280 mm 40.0 cal guns - 551.16lbs / 250.00kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1901 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 5.91" / 150 mm 40.0 cal guns - 88.18lbs / 40.00kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1901 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      10 - 5.91" / 150 mm 40.0 cal guns - 88.18lbs / 40.00kg shells, 250 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1901 Model
     10 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      14 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm 40.0 cal guns - 30.86lbs / 14.00kg shells, 250 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1901 Model
     14 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      14 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 3,871 lbs / 1,756 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.66" / 220 mm   271.00 ft / 82.60 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm   147.64 ft / 45.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Upper:   4.92" / 125 mm   271.00 ft / 82.60 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.0" / 280 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      11.0" / 280 mm
   2nd:   5.91" / 150 mm   2.95" / 75 mm      2.95" / 75 mm
   3rd:   2.95" / 75 mm         -               -
   4th:   2.95" / 75 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 2.95" / 75 mm
   Forecastle: 2.95" / 75 mm  Quarter deck: 2.95" / 75 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 11.81" / 300 mm, Aft 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 16,392 ihp / 12,229 Kw = 19.00 kts
   Range 4,100nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,853 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   636 - 827

Cost:
   £1.080 million / $4.321 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 682 tons, 4.9 %
      - Guns: 682 tons, 4.9 %
   Armour: 5,329 tons, 38.6 %
      - Belts: 3,041 tons, 22.0 %
      - Armament: 844 tons, 6.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,224 tons, 8.9 %
      - Conning Towers: 220 tons, 1.6 %
   Machinery: 2,522 tons, 18.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,652 tons, 26.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,616 tons, 11.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     17,856 lbs / 8,099 Kg = 26.7 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.31
   Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 13.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.40
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.69

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.596 / 0.602
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.75 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20.47 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 44
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -15.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Forward deck:   40.00 %,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Aft deck:   25.00 %,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m,  18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Average freeboard:      18.04 ft / 5.50 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 120.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 22,227 Square feet or 2,065 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 120 lbs/sq ft or 584 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.91
      - Longitudinal: 2.33
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[KWorld]

The downside of using the 24cm gun as a battleship gun is shown pretty clearly by the penetration chart on Navweaps for the German 24cm/40 - It's fine against iron armor, but by 1895 everyone's using Harvey armor or Krupp armor, with Krupp cemented armor following closely behind that.  Hard to tell exactly how your gun will match up (given lack of muzzle velocity data for the Austro-Hungarian Monarch-class and different shell weights), but against your own armor thickness, you'll need to get to ranges shorter than those used at the Battle of the Yellow Sea to penetrate (of course, to be fair, the ranges at Yellow Sea and Tsushima were longer than expected by the ship designers) Harvey armor, let alone Krupp or Krupp cemented.  As a secondary gun, I don't know that there's any great difference between the 9.2", the 240mm, or the 10" (or the CRN's 250mm).


The Braunshweig-clone is, perhaps, a bit lightly belted.  Also, I doubt she carries 14 centerline casemates, of any sort.... (same comment applies to the Fredrich III clone).


Also, on both these designs, you'll probably want to add some lighter, high ROF guns (not so much for shooting at TBs as at nasty flying things).

[Delta Force]

The downside of using the 24cm gun as a battleship gun is shown pretty clearly by the penetration chart on Navweaps for the German 24cm/40 - It's fine against iron armor, but by 1895 everyone's using Harvey armor or Krupp armor, with Krupp cemented armor following closely behind that.  Hard to tell exactly how your gun will match up (given lack of muzzle velocity data for the Austro-Hungarian Monarch-class and different shell weights), but against your own armor thickness, you'll need to get to ranges shorter than those used at the Battle of the Yellow Sea to penetrate (of course, to be fair, the ranges at Yellow Sea and Tsushima were longer than expected by the ship designers) Harvey armor, let alone Krupp or Krupp cemented.  As a secondary gun, I don't know that there's any great difference between the 9.2", the 240mm, or the 10" (or the CRN's 250mm).


The Braunshweig-clone is, perhaps, a bit lightly belted.  Also, I doubt she carries 14 centerline casemates, of any sort.... (same comment applies to the Fredrich III clone).


Also, on both these designs, you'll probably want to add some lighter, high ROF guns (not so much for shooting at TBs as at nasty flying things).

They are deck level casemates clustered around the central citadel. The German pre-dreadnoughts carried a lot of secondaries in the citadel. How are those simmed?

[KWorld]

Braunschweig, from the image here http://www.german-navy.de/hochseeflotte/ships/battleships/braunschweig/index.html, carried her 88mms either high on the sides and in deck mounts (I see a single casemate in the front superstructure) or below deck level casemates on the ends of the ship.  So, if I were making a copy of her, I'd sim those as the 3rd and 4th batteries (one for the casemates and one for the deck mounts), with the mounts on the sides rather than the centerline.


In the case of Kaiser Fredrich, from the image here http://www.german-navy.de/hochseeflotte/ships/battleships/kaiserfriedrich/index.html, all of her 88mm mounts are upper citadel deck mounts, so I'd sim them as side-mounted upper deck mounts.