Teutonic Marine Concepts

[Nobody]

First, a small patrol boat as a contender for a possible civil ship rule:

PB1, Teuton Patrol Boat laid down 1898

Displacement:
   103 t light; 106 t standard; 110 t normal; 113 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (82,02 ft / 82,02 ft) x 16,40 ft x (5,41 / 5,54 ft)
   (25,00 m / 25,00 m) x 5,00 m  x (1,65 / 1,69 m)

Armament:
      1 - 1,97" / 50,0 mm 45,0 cal gun - 3,85lbs / 1,74kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading gun in deck and hoist mount, 1898 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline forward
      5 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 25,0 cal guns - 1,40lbs / 0,64kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mount, 1898 Model
     1 x Quintuple mount on centreline aft
      3 - 0,31" / 8,0 mm 80,0 cal guns - 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 1.500 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1898 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck centre
      2 raised mounts
     1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck centre
      1 raised mount
      Weight of broadside 11 lbs / 5 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,79" / 20 mm         -         1,57" / 40 mm
   2nd:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Conning towers: Forward 0,59" / 15 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 210 ihp / 156 Kw = 11,48 kts
   Range 600nm at 8,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 7 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   16 - 22

Cost:
   £0,009 million / $0,036 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2 tons, 2,1%
      - Guns: 2 tons, 2,1%
   Armour: 3 tons, 2,9%
      - Armament: 3 tons, 2,6%
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,3%
   Machinery: 34 tons, 30,7%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 63 tons, 57,6%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 7 tons, 6,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     158 lbs / 72 Kg = 41,4 x 2,0 " / 50 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,23
   Metacentric height 0,5 ft / 0,1 m
   Roll period: 9,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 80 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,23
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2,00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,529 / 0,532
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 9,06 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   25,00%,  12,60 ft / 3,84 m,  10,30 ft / 3,14 m
      - Forward deck:   35,00%,  10,30 ft / 3,14 m,  10,30 ft / 3,14 m
      - Aft deck:   20,00%,  5,15 ft / 1,57 m,  5,15 ft / 1,57 m
      - Quarter deck:   20,00%,  5,15 ft / 1,57 m,  5,15 ft / 1,57 m
      - Average freeboard:      8,47 ft / 2,58 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106,7%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 89,3%
   Waterplane Area: 890 Square feet or 83 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 141%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 32 lbs/sq ft or 157 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1,10
      - Longitudinal: 23,96
      - Overall: 1,50
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

37 mm "Quintuple" is a Hotchkiss Revolving Cannon


And a older and smaller battleship design to counter these 6x12" behemoths. ^^
, Teutonic Battleship laid down 1895

Displacement:
   10.237 t light; 10.855 t standard; 12.000 t normal; 12.916 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (433,07 ft / 423,23 ft) x 72,18 ft x (22,97 / 24,40 ft)
   (132,00 m / 129,00 m) x 22,00 m  x (7,00 / 7,44 m)

Armament:
      4 - 11,14" / 283 mm 45,0 cal guns - 661,39lbs / 300,00kg shells, 180 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1895 Model
     2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      10 - 5,91" / 150 mm 45,0 cal guns - 99,21lbs / 45,00kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1895 Model
     10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      30 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 18,0 cal guns - 1,32lbs / 0,60kg shells, 150 per gun
     Auto rapid fire guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1895 Model
     6 x Quintuple mounts on sides, evenly spread
      6 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 3.677 lbs / 1.668 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11,0" / 280 mm   275,10 ft / 83,85 m   10,66 ft / 3,25 m
   Ends:   3,94" / 100 mm   148,10 ft / 45,14 m   10,66 ft / 3,25 m
   Upper:   5,91" / 150 mm   275,10 ft / 83,85 m   7,87 ft / 2,40 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   7,87" / 200 mm      11,8" / 300 mm
   2nd:   5,91" / 150 mm   3,15" / 80 mm      7,09" / 180 mm
   3rd:   0,59" / 15 mm         -         1,97" / 50 mm

   - Protected deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 1,97" / 50 mm
   Forecastle: 0,79" / 20 mm  Quarter deck: 0,79" / 20 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 12,01" / 305 mm, Aft 7,87" / 200 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 12.240 ihp / 9.131 Kw = 18,00 kts
   Range 4.500nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2.061 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   573 - 745

Cost:
   £0,961 million / $3,842 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 784 tons, 6,5%
      - Guns: 784 tons, 6,5%
   Armour: 4.020 tons, 33,5%
      - Belts: 2.230 tons, 18,6%
      - Armament: 838 tons, 7,0%
      - Armour Deck: 728 tons, 6,1%
      - Conning Towers: 225 tons, 1,9%
   Machinery: 2.075 tons, 17,3%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3.358 tons, 28,0%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.763 tons, 14,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     14.751 lbs / 6.691 Kg = 21,3 x 11,1 " / 283 mm shells or 2,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,37
   Metacentric height 5,3 ft / 1,6 m
   Roll period: 13,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 77 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,29
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,54

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,599 / 0,606
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,86 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20,57 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20,00%,  16,40 ft / 5,00 m,  14,76 ft / 4,50 m
      - Forward deck:   30,00%,  14,76 ft / 4,50 m,  13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Aft deck:   35,00%,  13,12 ft / 4,00 m,  13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15,00%,  13,12 ft / 4,00 m,  13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Average freeboard:      13,83 ft / 4,22 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81,7%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 100,2%
   Waterplane Area: 22.314 Square feet or 2.073 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 123 lbs/sq ft or 599 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,95
      - Longitudinal: 1,61
      - Overall: 1,00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

37 mm "Quintuple" are Hotchkiss Revolving Cannons

[Carthaginian]

OK... 5% looks a bit heavy on how much armaments and armor that you can put on one of these vessels.
That would mean that a 1000 ton ship could mount 50 tons worth of weapons and armor.
This could easily lead to a 'quasi-warship' being built on that tonnage.

We're going to need to see what the upper limit will be, but I'm thinking 2.5% or lower might be necessary.



The battleship I like immensely!

[Nobody]

OK... 5% looks a bit heavy on how much armaments and armor that you can put on one of these vessels.
That would mean that a 1000 ton ship could mount 50 tons worth of weapons and armor.
This could easily lead to a 'quasi-warship' being built on that tonnage.

We're going to need to see what the upper limit will be, but I'm thinking 2.5% or lower might be necessary.

That's why my suggestion was 2 to 3% OR a minimum of ~5 tons - similar to minesweepers, remember?

The battleship I like immensely!

Thanks, but I think I made too many cuts to reduce its displacement.

[Carthaginian]

OK... 5% looks a bit heavy on how much armaments and armor that you can put on one of these vessels.
That would mean that a 1000 ton ship could mount 50 tons worth of weapons and armor.
This could easily lead to a 'quasi-warship' being built on that tonnage.

We're going to need to see what the upper limit will be, but I'm thinking 2.5% or lower might be necessary.

That's why my suggestion was 2 to 3% OR a minimum of ~5 tons - similar to minesweepers, remember?

The battleship I like immensely!

Thanks, but I think I made too many cuts to reduce its displacement.

I agreed with the 2-3% figure then and now... I was just wondering why you chose to go with 5% for this design?

And the battleship is actually spot-on for the period. It won't compare exactly to some of the ships people will be fielding here (though mine are similar in size), but it is very period-appropriate.

[Nobody]

I agreed with the 2-3% figure then and now... I was just wondering why you chose to go with 5% for this design?

Well you haven't posted anything yet so I made some assumptions. In this case it's just a rework (to 1.5 composite and removed hull armor to achieve that) of the 100 ton craft posted before. Anyway, it's just 5 tons and less armament would be insufficient for a patrol craft in this world. (a light anti-ship gun to stop bigger ships, a short-range 'auto-cannon' against the biosphere and a few machine guns for day to day patrol, all with light shields)
That aside its hardly more than a 'study'. Once there are rules I will either adapt them or build them as smaller military vessels - like the one posted before.

And the battleship is actually spot-on for the period. It won't compare exactly to some of the ships people will be fielding here (though mine are similar in size), but it is very period-appropriate.

Except that the ship I thought I modeled mine after has more secondary and tertiary guns which are also bigger.

[Jefgte]

I like the battleship too.

Not exessive in all, just well balanced.
(My Liberté class with over 13000t is too big)

IMO, the PB is too small, with too short range for patrols.


Jef

[KWorld]

Looks rather equivalent to Canopus, though better armored (a common SS artifact).

The problem with the BB is that it lacks heavy secondaries: the 4 12" guns won't fire rapidly (period guns are 1 round a minute while ready ammunition holds out), which limits your ability to get hits.  The same period's 9.2" guns fire at 2 rounds per minute.   

[Carthaginian]

And yet, it was discovered that such an arrangement made both the heavy AND intermediate calibers less effective, becaues the heavy guns interfere with the intermediate guns, and vice versa. The most successful of the British battleships were the ones that had the large 6" batteries rather than the ones with the smaller batteries of 9.2" guns.

[KWorld]

There's an argument to be made there, but it's not one that was, at the time, accepted as proven fact.  To know that, all you have to do is look at the armament of the last generation of pre-dreads: most of them had a heavy secondary battery.  Look at HMS King Edward VII and HMS Lord Nelson, the USS Connecticutt, the FN Liberte and Danton, etc.

[Carthaginian]

There's an argument to be made there, but it's not one that was, at the time, accepted as proven fact.  To know that, all you have to do is look at the armament of the last generation of pre-dreads: most of them had a heavy secondary battery.  Look at HMS King Edward VII and HMS Lord Nelson, the USS Connecticutt, the FN Liberte and Danton, etc.

And, yet, those same vessels had spotting troubles WELL KNOWN AT THE TIME- so caveat emptor.

[KWorld]

That wasn't seen as an issue until late in the pre-dreadnought period, as optics and ranges got longer.  I suppose it's a question of how much hindsight you want to employ: the more you employ, the less the ships of this period will look like many of the historical ships, because in hindsight, we know better.

[Carthaginian]

That wasn't seen as an issue until late in the pre-dreadnought period, as optics and ranges got longer.  I suppose it's a question of how much hindsight you want to employ: the more you employ, the less the ships of this period will look like many of the historical ships, because in hindsight, we know better.

Not being able to tell the difference between the 9.2" and 12" splashes isn't 'hindsight'; it is an immediately noticed problem. As Tsushima had already been fought, the knowledge of longer range engagements is already there. In fact it was a well-known enough problem that the Lord Nelson battleships were delayed due to their turrets being packed off to Dreadnought's drydock; they knew the Dreadnought was a superior ship for long range engagements.

[Jefgte]

We could suppose,
With a different rof between main & secondary guns,
The timing of the salves & splashes were different.
You could also change the number of guns. for ex, 4 x12" & 6x9"2.
You have then, a number of splashes different.
More easy to identify.

Jef

[Nobody]

The problem with the BB is that it lacks heavy secondaries: the 4 12" guns won't fire rapidly (period guns are 1 round a minute while ready ammunition holds out), which limits your ability to get hits.  The same period's 9.2" guns fire at 2 rounds per minute.

Which is why I'm not using 12" but 28 cm guns, that achieve 2 rounds per minute (not that that would actually matter, because in real combat 1 per minute was quite good). You might notice notice that that is only a L40 gun and that it fires much lighter shells. So I modified my 1895 BB and gave her a better light battery:
BBL, Teutonic Battleship laid down 1895

Displacement:
   10.266 t light; 10.855 t standard; 12.000 t normal; 12.916 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (433,07 ft / 423,23 ft) x 72,18 ft x (22,97 / 24,40 ft)
   (132,00 m / 129,00 m) x 22,00 m  x (7,00 / 7,44 m)

Armament:
      4 - 11,14" / 283 mm 40,0 cal guns - 529,11lbs / 240,00kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1895 Model
     2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      14 - 5,91" / 150 mm 45,0 cal guns - 99,21lbs / 45,00kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1895 Model
     14 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 - 3,46" / 88,0 mm 30,0 cal guns - 19,17lbs / 8,69kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1895 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts
      30 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 20,0 cal guns - 1,39lbs / 0,63kg shells, 250 per gun
     Machine guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1895 Model
     4 x Quintuple mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
     2 x Quintuple mounts on sides, forward deck centre
      2 double raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 3.700 lbs / 1.678 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11,0" / 280 mm   275,10 ft / 83,85 m   10,66 ft / 3,25 m
   Ends:   4,33" / 110 mm   148,10 ft / 45,14 m   10,66 ft / 3,25 m
   Upper:   5,91" / 150 mm   275,10 ft / 83,85 m   7,87 ft / 2,40 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12,0" / 305 mm   7,87" / 200 mm      11,8" / 300 mm
   2nd:   5,91" / 150 mm   3,15" / 80 mm      7,09" / 180 mm
   3rd:   0,59" / 15 mm         -               -
   4th:   0,47" / 12 mm         -         2,36" / 60 mm

   - Protected deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 1,97" / 50 mm
   Forecastle: 0,98" / 25 mm  Quarter deck: 0,98" / 25 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 12,01" / 305 mm, Aft 7,87" / 200 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 12.240 ihp / 9.131 Kw = 18,00 kts
   Range 4.500nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2.061 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   573 - 745

Cost:
   £0,946 million / $3,784 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 768 tons, 6,4%
      - Guns: 768 tons, 6,4%
   Armour: 4.136 tons, 34,5%
      - Belts: 2.253 tons, 18,8%
      - Armament: 916 tons, 7,6%
      - Armour Deck: 743 tons, 6,2%
      - Conning Towers: 225 tons, 1,9%
   Machinery: 2.075 tons, 17,3%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3.287 tons, 27,4%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.734 tons, 14,5%
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     15.319 lbs / 6.948 Kg = 22,2 x 11,1 " / 283 mm shells or 2,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,43
   Metacentric height 5,7 ft / 1,7 m
   Roll period: 12,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,25
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,55

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,599 / 0,606
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,86 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20,57 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20,00%,  16,40 ft / 5,00 m,  14,76 ft / 4,50 m
      - Forward deck:   30,00%,  14,76 ft / 4,50 m,  13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Aft deck:   35,00%,  13,12 ft / 4,00 m,  13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15,00%,  13,12 ft / 4,00 m,  13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Average freeboard:      13,83 ft / 4,22 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80,4%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 100,2%
   Waterplane Area: 22.314 Square feet or 2.073 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 120 lbs/sq ft or 588 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,95
      - Longitudinal: 1,59
      - Overall: 1,00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Warning: Wrong mount for machine gun - 4th battery

37 mm "Quintuple" are Hotchkiss Revolving Cannons

For comparison:

Class	Year	Size	Main	2nd	3rd	4th
Brandenburg	1891	10013	6x28cm	6x10.5cm	8x8.8cm	12x(?)x3.7cm
Kaiser-Friedrich-III.	1896	11100	4x24cm	18x15cm	12x8,8cm	12x(?)x3.7cm
Wittelsbach	190?	11744	4x24cm	18x15cm	12x8,8cm	12x(?)x3.7cm
Braunschweig	1902	13208	4x28cm	14x17cm	18x8.8cm
Deutschland	1904	13190	4x28cm	14x17cm	20x8.8cm

[KWorld]

That wasn't seen as an issue until late in the pre-dreadnought period, as optics and ranges got longer.  I suppose it's a question of how much hindsight you want to employ: the more you employ, the less the ships of this period will look like many of the historical ships, because in hindsight, we know better.

Not being able to tell the difference between the 9.2" and 12" splashes isn't 'hindsight'; it is an immediately noticed problem. As Tsushima had already been fought, the knowledge of longer range engagements is already there. In fact it was a well-known enough problem that the Lord Nelson battleships were delayed due to their turrets being packed off to Dreadnought's drydock; they knew the Dreadnought was a superior ship for long range engagements.

Thing is, though, if we're going to use the argument that "all that already happened, everyone knows the lessons learned from that", then why would we be building ships that look like WWI ACs, BBs, etc, rather than dreadnoughts and dreadnought cruisers?  The mixed battery battleship was a product of it's environment, where ranges were expected to be short and guns were operating in local control.  If ranges aren't expected to be short (because of better rangefinders, etc), then designs shouldn't look historical.