N4.5 Rules Question/Comment thread

[KWorld]

Heh, common sense is all too uncommon, and what 1 person thinks is common sense may not seem so to someone else.  :)

[ctwaterman]

We have had this problem before.  Just because you can load a Mechanized Corps.  Say 15 Tons per APC/ Light Tankette and 30 Tons per Medium Tank in any port you own.  Now unloading them over the beach is always the part that sucks.. litterally people drown get sucked under.

To properly unload a mechanized force and more importantly to keep it supplied with fuel and munitions you need an intact enemy port.   Which if he is smart he built proper defenses to keep you from simply sailing into the port dropping anchor grounding one of your Ro-Ro ships against his pier and start unloading.

Or I guess you could build floating harbors tow then to the enemies nearbye Island and sink them in a conveniently undefended bay.  Should take about 24 to 48 hours to get them running and start unloading.

[KWorld]

An interesting question just occurred to me: IF the environment is as hostile as proposed, how are the seas?  In particular, if the seas and the air over the seas (even if only in the coastal regions) are hostile to ships and their crews, does this mean that civilian ships will be armed, at least heavily enough to deal with various predatory life forms?  Do liners carry an anti-bird bat battery (try saying that 5 times fast)?

[Jefgte]

An interesting question just occurred to me: IF the environment is as hostile as proposed, how are the seas?  In particular, if the seas and the air over the seas (even if only in the coastal regions) are hostile to ships and their crews, does this mean that civilian ships will be armed, at least heavily enough to deal with various predatory life forms?  Do liners carry an anti-bird bat battery (try saying that 5 times fast)?

After 2000 years on the new planet, all human communauties had eliminate the land & flying predators - Carnosaures, Birds-Bats...
But, the other parts of the planet, islands or continents  are not clean.
In the oceans, thera are big predators similar to plesiosaures & Kronosaures.

Machines guns & small QF guns are absolutly neccessary !!!

I wroted this text with the first Nova Francia Plan

"All the ships armaments are in closed installation to protect crew from large native creatures.
They are also equiped with double mount of 13.2 mm Hotchkiss machine gun for the same job.
These M2x13.2mm Hotchkiss  can fire vs flying or sea predators.
When the warships are outside the bases, these mounts are in alert condition."

----------
Today, small ships like DDs, TBs or PBs have 4x13.2
Biger ships had 4M2x13.2
All guns deck mount are covered to protect gunners vs flying or sea predators.
When the ships are at sea, promenade on the deck is strickly forbiden!!!

Jef  ;)

[Carthaginian]

Once you get 'out to sea'- beyond the range of typical land birds- would be 'relatively safe' for a ship armed with anything in the .50 caliber range and over. The beasties that they encounter out there would be similar to pterosaurs in size and structure- large and fierce, but delicate in comparison to other animals. Their proportionally large gliding wings would be very vulnerable to damage.

Merchant ships would not (under normal circumstances) need something as large as a 57mm gun... though some nations (like Nova Francia) would be entirely justified to feel that way! Likewise, I don't think that every gun mount needs to be covered or that the main decks need to be clear of personnel at all times... but that will be an internal matter for the local jurisdictions. ;)

My navy feels that giving the crewmen on duty 'sufficient protection' (read 'helmets and mail shirts') offers them protection from 'swarm birds'; off duty personnel would be allowed topside in 'areas under protection of the watch.' Ships of the S.M.O.S.J. will also feature a unique 'belt fed shotgun' for dealing with the small swarming birds.

On land, giant flightless birds like those of the Phorusrhacidae family would necessitate the carrying of at least one heavy machine gun per squad. Larger lizards are common land animals, similar to monitor lizards and dragon lizards. Mammals never really seem to have 'caught on' on this planet.

[KWorld]

When should torpedo bulkheads start coming into use?  Historically, they were pretty late, because designers thought that the coal bunkers would serve the purpose.  However, IF we know what worked and what didn't historically, then they should be available from the start.

[Nobody]

Good question, but what is 'pretty late'? In German ships some sort of torpedo protection might have been present since the Deutschland-class (1904) and is definitive for all dreadnought-type ships.

[KWorld]

Depends.  VERY few pre-dreadnoughts had any USEFUL torpedo protection, and not all dreadnoughts had any (the Courbets did not, for instance, and the Bretagnes had an 8mm bulkhead) either.  But given how long-ranged the torps are at game start, and what may be known about how poorly coal bunkers serve as torpedo defences....

[Carthaginian]

OK- I just noticed this, so I'm sorry for being a bit late responding.

Torpedoes are very new... VERY new.
No one has really seen them in action. Sure, we've all fired off a few at some old armored frigates or maybe even one or two of our pre-dreads that had to be scrapped... but no one has ever really gotten hit by something in combat on a ship that is fully manned and where all hands are standing ready to respond to damage control orders. We don't really know how effective that damage control will be either.

So- can you have torpedo bulkheads? Maybe a few classes, but fleetwide wouldn't make sense just yet.
Devoting a few hundred tons of Miscellaneous Weight for 'greater subdivision' or 'cellular construction' might make better sense.

[Carthaginian]

I've almost finished the complete backstory for the world- so many questions will be answered. One or two more quiet nights at work will just about do it.

[KWorld]

That'll probably help shut me up.   ;D

[snip]

Depends.  VERY few pre-dreadnoughts had any USEFUL torpedo protection, and not all dreadnoughts had any (the Courbets did not, for instance, and the Bretagnes had an 8mm bulkhead) either.  But given how long-ranged the torps are at game start, and what may be known about how poorly coal bunkers serve as torpedo defences....

well I can say for sure that SS "Additional Damage Containing Bulkheads" option is out for the start as those are for systems like the USN Standards and beyond. Way advanced for what we are looking at time frame wise.

[Nobody]

well I can say for sure that SS "Additional Damage Containing Bulkheads" option is out for the start as those are for systems like the USN Standards and beyond. Way advanced for what we are looking at time frame wise.

There is another problem. While using the "strengthened bulkhead" which I like (because it seems to be the way SS3 sims a germen style protection system) I realized that option should be out as well, because it's 'free of cost' - all weight allocated to it seems to be simply removed from the 'Hull, fittings & equipment' value!

[Carthaginian]

well I can say for sure that SS "Additional Damage Containing Bulkheads" option is out for the start as those are for systems like the USN Standards and beyond. Way advanced for what we are looking at time frame wise.

There is another problem. While using the "strengthened bulkhead" which I like (because it seems to be the way SS3 sims a germen style protection system) I realized that option should be out as well, because it's 'free of cost' - all weight allocated to it seems to be simply removed from the 'Hull, fittings & equipment' value!

Nobody,
Show me how this works with a bit more detail. Is it similar to how the weight for torpedoes simply isn't included? If this is so, we can simply enter the weight manually in the Miscellaneous Weights under 'Hull Below Waterline.' This also extends the amount of armored belt needed to cover the ship's 'vital areas,' so it would fix BOTH the problem of the weight not being calculated and the problem of the resulting extending of the area needing protected.

[Nobody]

well I can say for sure that SS "Additional Damage Containing Bulkheads" option is out for the start as those are for systems like the USN Standards and beyond. Way advanced for what we are looking at time frame wise.

There is another problem. While using the "strengthened bulkhead" which I like (because it seems to be the way SS3 sims a germen style protection system) I realized that option should be out as well, because it's 'free of cost' - all weight allocated to it seems to be simply removed from the 'Hull, fittings & equipment' value!

Nobody,
Show me how this works with a bit more detail. Is it similar to how the weight for torpedoes simply isn't included? If this is so, we can simply enter the weight manually in the Miscellaneous Weights under 'Hull Below Waterline.' This also extends the amount of armored belt needed to cover the ship's 'vital areas,' so it would fix BOTH the problem of the weight not being calculated and the problem of the resulting extending of the area needing protected.

Er no. You see this best if you add a ridiculously thick torpedo bulkhead, e.g.:
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
      19,7" / 500 mm   330,54 ft / 100,75 m   32,81 ft / 10,00 m
Then the result in the weight distribution looks like this:
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armour:
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 7.899 tons, 39,5%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: -3.183 tons, -15,9%
So whatever weight is added as a Strengthened bulkhead is at the same time removed from the hull weight. The composite strength of the ship however remains unchanged (at 1.00). If you use 'additional bulkheads' instead, the composite drops.

I don't see your problem with the necessary belt length though, that seem to work just fine IMHO. What doesn't work though is that is the amount of damage (number of torpedos to sink the ship) is usually - but not always - unaffected by the torpedo protection system.