New World Ships...

[Carthaginian]

Jef has lead the way with his great work on Nova Francia, so I invite everyone else to join in.
Whether you intend to use it or not, post you best thoughts on ships for your new navy.
Laydown year 1905-1920..

Last Pre-Dread Battleship  laid down 1905

Displacement:
   15,238 t light; 16,150 t standard; 17,000 t normal; 17,680 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (450.00 ft / 450.00 ft) x 85.00 ft x (24.00 / 24.81 ft)
   (137.16 m / 137.16 m) x 25.91 m  x (7.32 / 7.56 m)

Armament:
      4 - 12.00" / 305 mm 45.0 cal guns - 875.00lbs / 396.89kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      12 - 7.50" / 191 mm 45.0 cal guns - 200.00lbs / 90.72kg shells, 250 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1905 Model
     6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      12 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 50.0 cal guns - 12.00lbs / 5.44kg shells, 500 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1905 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      12 raised mounts
      10 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.51lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1,500 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1905 Model
     4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
     1 x Twin mount on centreline, aft deck forward
      1 raised mount
      Weight of broadside 6,049 lbs / 2,744 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   270.00 ft / 82.30 m   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   180.00 ft / 54.86 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   6.00" / 152 mm      12.0" / 305 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm   3.00" / 76 mm      6.00" / 152 mm

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
   Forecastle: 1.50" / 38 mm  Quarter deck: 1.50" / 38 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 12.00" / 305 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 16,000 ihp / 11,936 Kw = 18.19 kts
   Range 4,578nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,530 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   743 - 967

Cost:
   £1.433 million / $5.733 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,231 tons, 7.2 %
      - Guns: 1,231 tons, 7.2 %
   Armour: 6,046 tons, 35.6 %
      - Belts: 2,884 tons, 17.0 %
      - Armament: 1,543 tons, 9.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,448 tons, 8.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 171 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 2,319 tons, 13.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,292 tons, 31.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,762 tons, 10.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 2.1 %
      - Hull below water: 150 tons
      - Hull above water: 150 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 50 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     26,116 lbs / 11,846 Kg = 30.2 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.42
   Metacentric height 7.2 ft / 2.2 m
   Roll period: 13.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.41
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.83

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low quarterdeck ,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.648 / 0.652
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.29 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.21 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 38
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  25.00 ft / 7.62 m,  22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  22.00 ft / 6.71 m,  21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Aft deck:   30.00 %,  21.00 ft / 6.40 m,  20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Quarter deck:   20.00 %,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m,  13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Average freeboard:      19.74 ft / 6.02 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 157.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 29,252 Square feet or 2,718 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 145 lbs/sq ft or 708 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.91
      - Longitudinal: 2.14
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Jefgte]

4 - 12.00" / 305 mm 45.0 cal guns - 875.00lbs / 396.89kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      12 - 7.50" / 191 mm 45.0 cal guns - 200.00lbs / 90.72kg shells, 250 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1905 Model
     6 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      12 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 50.0 cal guns - 12.00lbs / 5.44kg shells, 500 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1905 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      12 raised mounts

12" - 2 x Single mounts on centreline ends... for 4 guns

7"5 - in turret on barbette mounts, 1905 Model
     6 x Twin mounts on sides,
choose 12B1x7"5 or 6T2x7"5.

I note that you have not machines guns vs predators...
Heavy armor.

Jef  ;)

[Carthaginian]

Whoops- thought I fixed that; it should be twin mounts.

The 7.5" guns are in twin turrets- 'twin mounts' means that the guns are not individually sleeved and elevate together; a 'two gun mount' is an individually sleeved mount where the guns elevate separately.

Heavy machine guns may or may not be required. ;)

EDIT:
I've fixed the problems you indicated, Jef, and have extended the range a bit and added the HMG's that will fend off predators.

All in all, I think she's a good little pre-dreadnought.

[Valles]

Technically, I think that this is probably weaseling the 'AQX' clause about predreadnought design, since both of the after turrets are supposed to be behind the engine spaces... but that smacks of excessive parallelism anyway, so I'd prefer to at least try this as my starting BB class.

Not that I expect Croatoa to have many of those; their concerns seem to me to either call for cruisers - to cover the coasts of a large mostly empty territory - or coast defense ships, to beat back attacks on strong points.

Shining-class, Croatoa Battleship laid down 1900

Displacement:
   14,774 t light; 15,676 t standard; 16,370 t normal; 16,925 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (433.74 ft / 426.51 ft) x 78.74 ft x (26.25 / 27.00 ft)
   (132.20 m / 130.00 m) x 24.00 m  x (8.00 / 8.23 m)

Armament:
      6 - 13.78" / 350 mm 30.0 cal guns - 1,212.54lbs / 550.00kg shells, 90 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1900 Model
     3 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
      36 - 4.92" / 125 mm 40.0 cal guns - 57.32lbs / 26.00kg shells, 180 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1900 Model
     36 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
      12 raised mounts
      12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      10 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.55lbs / 0.25kg shells, 1,500 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1900 Model
     10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      10 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 9,344 lbs / 4,238 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.8" / 350 mm   298.56 ft / 91.00 m   10.66 ft / 3.25 m
   Ends:   5.91" / 150 mm   127.92 ft / 38.99 m   10.66 ft / 3.25 m
   Upper:   5.91" / 150 mm   131.23 ft / 40.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
     Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
      0.98" / 25 mm   298.56 ft / 91.00 m   25.20 ft / 7.68 m
   Beam between torpedo bulkheads 65.62 ft / 20.00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.8" / 350 mm   9.84" / 250 mm      13.8" / 350 mm
   2nd:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.39" / 10 mm   0.39" / 10 mm            -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 2.95" / 75 mm
   Forecastle: 0.98" / 25 mm  Quarter deck: 0.98" / 25 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 13.78" / 350 mm, Aft 13.78" / 350 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 10,000 ihp / 7,460 Kw = 16.15 kts
   Range 5,962nm at 8.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,249 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   723 - 940

Cost:
   £1.271 million / $5.084 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,288 tons, 7.9 %
      - Guns: 1,288 tons, 7.9 %
   Armour: 6,773 tons, 41.4 %
      - Belts: 2,968 tons, 18.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 274 tons, 1.7 %
      - Armament: 1,880 tons, 11.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,268 tons, 7.7 %
      - Conning Towers: 383 tons, 2.3 %
   Machinery: 1,547 tons, 9.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,016 tons, 30.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,596 tons, 9.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0.9 %
      - Hull below water: 50 tons
      - Hull above water: 50 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 50 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     26,138 lbs / 11,856 Kg = 20.0 x 13.8 " / 350 mm shells or 4.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.25
   Metacentric height 5.3 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 14.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.79
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.93

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.650 / 0.653
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.42 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20.65 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 39
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.89 ft / 0.88 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   15.00 %,  24.61 ft / 7.50 m,  24.61 ft / 7.50 m
      - Forward deck:   15.00 %,  24.61 ft / 7.50 m,  24.61 ft / 7.50 m
      - Aft deck:   55.00 %,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      18.86 ft / 5.75 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 75.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 123.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 25,727 Square feet or 2,390 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 153 lbs/sq ft or 749 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.89
      - Longitudinal: 2.60
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Jefgte]

I not the slow speed, interresting choice to economise weight.


Jef  ;)

[snip]

I find the choice of L30 guns to be very interesting.

[Valles]

Well, this is an older ship, which will necessarily be slower and mount less capable guns than later designs. Despite the fairly modern layout, she's still a predreadnought, with limitations on things like the machinery available (especially given an emphasis on cruising range and reliability over peak output) and on the muzzle energy that can be gotten out of the available smokeless powders.

Since I'd decided from the get-go to see if I could stick with the same main battery caliber throughout the entire game, that meant that they had to be short, low-velocity guns.

It also meant that, given the choice to go for four-knot 'steps' in ship speed, my choices were essentially 16 knots or 20 knots. I wanted my first dreadnought class to be a step faster than the predreadnoughts, and I don't think that 9x350mm at 24kts is practicable on 25ktons, thus.

[snip]

Well under the treaty/rules, all ships built after the start of the game cannot mount guns larger then 305mm. Carth and myself will talk about what we want to do about pre-treaty ships, but my inkling is that the treaty limit will be enforced on ships constructed pre-start.

Also, the limit on capital ships at start is currently set at 20ktons

[Valles]

Well under the treaty/rules, all ships built after the start of the game cannot mount guns larger then 305mm. Carth and myself will talk about what we want to do about pre-treaty ships, but my inkling is that the treaty limit will be enforced on ships constructed pre-start.

That's... irritating. And not how I'd read the rules at all. They'd seemed to me to say that 'battleships' were those vessels carrying at least two guns that size or over.

But given that I wasn't one of the people helping write them, I'll take your word on the intended meeting.

Apparently I won't be starting with battleships, or building them for a good long while, then. That could prove interesting...

Also, the limit on capital ships at start is currently set at 20ktons

The successor dreadnought would be laid down after game start, yes.

Unless I'm misreading something else?

[snip]

To answer your question, an earlyer draft had a hard cap on 305mm guns. I dont know were it went, Carth will have to answer that. So as things stand now, 350mm guns would be legal, but with displament caped at 20ktons, it will be interesting to see how that works. I will talk with Carth to make sure that the ommision of the gun limit was intentional.

[Valles]

*fiddles a bit*

3x2x350mm at 20kts works out fairly neatly, in fact. Scaling protection and secondary armament back to what a battlecruiser fan would be willing to set for might get you 4 main battery turrets. Given the design ethos and fleet concept I'm going for, I won't/can't, but I wouldn't be surprised if somebody else did. 325mm would probably actually be practical.

[Carthaginian]

Yes, I did intend to have the 12" cap on Battleship guns in there.
I (apparently) accidentally removed the clause during the last edit.

I understand that some people might like to go bigger. I would prefer to, even with their poorer performance, go with the USN's 13" guns of the period... but I ran into an issue with this. The 12" gun was the de facto standard for pre-dreadnoughts, and only one nation I can find routinely fielded guns beyond that caliber after 1890- that being the United States Navy, and then only in two classes.

The Treaty is able to be modified- and I'm sure that the FIRST change will be to allow larger guns for battleships. I intended this to a degree- hoping to ensure some RP interaction regarding the treaty... much in the same way that the intentional forbidding of aircraft carriers and submarines was planned to do so.

The treaty was not altered in 1910 after the second 5-year cycle... so there will be a vote on changes in 2 game years, which will be a relatively short time. It will basically allow a period for everyone to build up fleets and plan for the future. The we can vote on what we want to change then.

After that- ships are only limited by the whims of the majority, and Devil take the hindmost.

[Valles]

Mmm. Yeah, what I'm intending to do is see if I can get through the entire game without ever changing my 'Main Battery' calibers, and trying to do that with 30cm would be far more of a gamble than I can square with myself. 35cm might be a bit small to tangle with a 16" or 18" ship, but it's at least within spitting distance, which 30cm wouldn't be.

But I should be able to get through the early phase with only PDNs, so I'm good.

[Valles]

Well, here's another try at a 'fleet centerpiece' vessel for the starting formation. I'm less sure about this design, honestly. I may end up going back and seeing what needs to be sacrificed to get better range.


Anyway.

Hand-class, Croatoa Frigate laid down 1905

Displacement:
   13,187 t light; 14,123 t standard; 15,012 t normal; 15,723 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (565.26 ft / 557.74 ft) x 65.62 ft x (26.25 / 27.22 ft)
   (172.29 m / 170.00 m) x 20.00 m  x (8.00 / 8.30 m)

Armament:
      6 - 8.86" / 225 mm 40.0 cal guns - 440.92lbs / 200.00kg shells, 180 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1905 Model
     3 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
      20 - 4.92" / 125 mm 50.0 cal guns - 66.14lbs / 30.00kg shells, 500 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1905 Model
     20 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
      10 raised mounts
      10 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.55lbs / 0.25kg shells, 1,500 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1905 Model
     10 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
      10 double raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 3,974 lbs / 1,802 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9.84" / 250 mm   362.53 ft / 110.50 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   1.97" / 50 mm   195.18 ft / 59.49 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
   Upper:   3.94" / 100 mm   362.53 ft / 110.50 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9.84" / 250 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      9.84" / 250 mm
   2nd:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.39" / 10 mm            -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 1.97" / 50 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 9.84" / 250 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 20,000 ihp / 14,920 Kw = 20.39 kts
   Range 3,600nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,600 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   677 - 881

Cost:
   £1.097 million / $4.389 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 741 tons, 4.9 %
      - Guns: 741 tons, 4.9 %
   Armour: 5,222 tons, 34.8 %
      - Belts: 3,562 tons, 23.7 %
      - Armament: 782 tons, 5.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 749 tons, 5.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 129 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 2,870 tons, 19.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,204 tons, 28.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,826 tons, 12.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 1.0 %
      - Hull below water: 50 tons
      - Hull above water: 50 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 50 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     18,536 lbs / 8,408 Kg = 53.3 x 8.9 " / 225 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
   Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 14.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.63

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.547 / 0.552
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 38 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 44
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.89 ft / 0.88 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   15.00 %,  26.25 ft / 8.00 m,  24.61 ft / 7.50 m
      - Forward deck:   10.00 %,  24.61 ft / 7.50 m,  24.61 ft / 7.50 m
      - Aft deck:   55.00 %,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Quarter deck:   20.00 %,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Average freeboard:      18.55 ft / 5.66 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 126.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 25,469 Square feet or 2,366 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 115 lbs/sq ft or 560 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.51
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[snip]

To answer your question regarding range. Cut some belt. Speed is good, the main guns leave a little be desired IMO, but that belt is just way to thick for an AC. I would say cut it back to about 200mm or so and throw the strength into range instead.

Comparing her to my own Faith's (an altered Rurik II) she is a bit under-guned as those 225mm guns are going to have a harder time penetrating armor at range then the 254mm guns on the Faith. Given your belt the difficulty is likely to be mutual, but I digress. I understand the want of an AQY, but in this case I think it would be better served to go for larger guns in AY twins. That alone would make me more willing to go with the already given armor. Cutting back on the armor, adding to range, and upping the main guns in caliber and reducing number will create a warship which could give any OTL AC a serious run for its money.