Finish rules for SS quietly

[Valles]

I'm not too concerned about whether we call the year 10,241, 3614 K.R., or 1920 A.S., or Six Monkey Slap-Slap... it's all the same. In all honesty, I was planning on trying to work the X920 formula as the start date- but it would probably be 3920 rather than 1920. This is simply to give the population some time to expand. ;)

My inclination would have been to assume a starting population of three-to-ten million rather than three-to-ten thousand, but, honestly, depending on birth rates and mortality, almost two thousand years could easily be enough. Geometric progression, and all.

Either way, I can't say it's a big enough deal for me to bother caring about, I just think that the numbers lining up like that would be amusing.

Airships.
They will possibly be allowed by treaty- but will be completely forbidden from being used in any military capacity whatsoever... meaning not even as scouts. They make sense as load-lifters and for transporting over long distances; but I don't really even want to see them in military applications, since they had such narrow uses there, anyway.

That last is more or less exactly why I don't see the point in going to the trouble of writing an explicit rule forbidding them.

Treaty Approach.
I'm going for something like Battletech's 'Ares Treaty' rather than a 'Washington/London Naval Treaty' clone. Our little colony noticed that not regulating the way that wars were fought lead to no end of heartache for Earth... so upon settling down and determining how they wanted their world to work, they laid out certain rules for the waging of war. They had the benefits of knowing what technology that they would have access to in the near (and not so near) future, and they placed limitations on what would be allowed and what would not. Some ideas I'm batting around:
1.) Assaulting you enemy's capital was forbidden, but outlying areas are not.
2.) Nuclear weapons shall not be developed.
3.) Landmines are not to be used within X miles of settled areas.

The overall goal is to make wars easier to fight by dent of making them less damaging to the civilian population... and by limiting the size of individual assets (like ships) to make them 'expendable.'

Given the range in size and significance between capital cities, I don't think that 1 is really workable. Especially since the failure to protect other centers would mean that all it would do would be remove an option for the quick resolution of a conflict.

My own suggestion would run something like...

Article 1: Area denial weapons may be employed only in universally announced zones, and then only in times of declared war. All such weapons must be individually placed and logged by the responsible power, who shall be legally obligated to publish said logs at the end of the conflict.

Article 2: Weapons of mass destruction, including but not limited to atomic, biological, and chemical weapons, as well as the use of kinetic bolide strikes, are absolutely forbidden. Related civilian and non-offensive technologies are permitted only under the inspection of the international community.

Article 3: The provision of offensive armament, including but not limited to guns, missiles, and gravity bombs, on aircraft of any sort is absolutely forbidden.

Article 4: The installation of defensive works within and among civilian populations and population centers, as defined in Appendix A, is forbidden. Defensive works separated from or surrounding civilian areas are permitted.

Article 5: Civilian populations and areas of any and all nations are required to surrender when summoned to by a hostile military force, unless allied military forces are present to contest said territory.

Article 6: Under no circumstances shall military action be undertaken within civilian population zones. Police forces, as defined in Appendix A, may only be employed within their own or formally surrendered settlements.

Article 7: Military forces may not interfere with the flow of vital goods, fully defined in Appendix A but explicitly including food, medicine, and fresh water, into or out of a civilian population zone under any circumstances not explicitly covered in Article 8.

Article 8: If an undefended civilian population center refuses to surrender as dictated under Article 5, hostile military forces may, at their discretion, use force to impede the flow of goods into and out of said settlement. Article 8 is subordinate to and may not override Article 6.

Article 9: Captured settlements shall be governed in accordance with the provision of their original nation's civil or martial law statutes until or unless ceded to the capturing nation by formal treaty or until the dissolution of their original nation following the capture of all of its former population.

A few more little thoughts: 1.) Navies might be limited by manpower rather than tonnage. Since we will have a mandatory need to monitor population, we might just cap military size at 10-20% of national population. This will 'feel' more natural than tonnage limits and also result in a smaller treaty to write.

I don't see any need for a 'legal' cap on military expenditure. The natural balance produced by economics and the international situation - between growth and defense - should be more than adequate.

[Carthaginian]

Valles - with your permission, I would like to keep the entire text of your treaty as a starting point for our pre-start Worldwide Treaty of the Rules of Warfare. It is, quite honestly, exactly what I had hoped to see someone write.

Airships.
They will possibly be allowed by treaty- but will be completely forbidden from being used in any military capacity whatsoever... meaning not even as scouts. They make sense as load-lifters and for transporting over long distances; but I don't really even want to see them in military applications, since they had such narrow uses there, anyway.

That last is more or less exactly why I don't see the point in going to the trouble of writing an explicit rule forbidding them.

The reason is that if there isn't a rule, then some will indeed abuse the lack thereof.
There will be a rule that zeppelins will only be allowed in fluff until a certain point, at which time they will be considered recon elements attached to existing forces, in numbers to be determined.

[Nobody]

A few more little thoughts: 1.) Navies might be limited by manpower rather than tonnage. Since we will have a mandatory need to monitor population, we might just cap military size at 10-20% of national population. This will 'feel' more natural than tonnage limits and also result in a smaller treaty to write.

The crew size would be a very nice limit - if SpringSharp would make a difference between an unmanned  float and a Flak blazing warship.  However, it does not. AFAIK it is estimated just on the ships size.

So I like the idea, but I would currently see it as an unnecessary extra.

[Valles]

Valles - with your permission, I would like to keep the entire text of your treaty as a starting point for our pre-start Worldwide Treaty of the Rules of Warfare. It is, quite honestly, exactly what I had hoped to see someone write.

You may feel free to make use of it, then.

The reason is that if there isn't a rule, then some will indeed abuse the lack thereof.
There will be a rule that zeppelins will only be allowed in fluff until a certain point, at which time they will be considered recon elements attached to existing forces, in numbers to be determined.

I'd tend to consider a large airship to be equivalent, cost wise, to an escort sloop or mine warfare ship, or to an airplane squadron, and would thus tend to think of them as being individually tracked the way all of those things are... But perhaps, instead, we could track the hangers they operate out of?

Put another way, I think that airships have too much range for tying them to specific units that way to make sense.

Still, this is quibbling. Yay, airships!

[Jefgte]

Ok Cart.

Could we list the countries on Terra Nova & affect the population ?


Jef  ;)

[Jefgte]

Here is a board about a fleet with Crews

technos	TYPE	CREW	ships Qty	CREW x Ships	NORMAL DISP.
1900	Patrol Gunboat	67-88	10	880	700t-775t
1901	Patrol Gunboat	67-88	10	880	700t-775t
1902	Squadron Gunboat ex PC	274-357	4	1428	4500t-4995t
1903	Squadron Gunboat ex PC	274-357	4	1428	4500t-4995t
1904	Escort Cruiser ex AC	446-580	2	1160	8600t-9341t
1905	Escort Cruiser ex AC	446-580	2	1160	8600t-9341t
1906	Torpedo Boat (Chasseur)	69-91	6	546	731t-796t
1907	Torpedo Boat (Chasseur)	69-91	6	546	731t-796t
1908	3rd class BB	626-814	2	1628	13500t-14386t
1909	3rd class BB	626-814	2	1628	13500t-14386t
1910	3nd class BB -Courbet	683-889	1	889	15200t-15684
1911	3nd class BB -Courbet	683-889	1	889	15200t-15684
1912	Torpedo Boat	88-115	6	690	750t
1913	Torpedo Boat	88-115	6	690	750t
1914	Cruiser NOVA	241-314	2	628	3800t-4020t
1915	Cruiser (Dupleix)	390-508	2	1016	7200t-7522t
1916	Cruiser Leon (Gambetta)	536-698	2	1396	11000t-10398t
1917	BB Normandie class	1058-1376	1	1396	27200t-28197t
1918	BB Normandie class	1058-1376	1	1396	27200t-28197t
1919	BB Lyon class	1237-1609	1	1609	33500t-34624t
1920	BB Lyon class	1237-1609	1	1609	33500t-34624t
1921	Torpedo Boat	95-125	6	750	800t
1922	Torpedo Boat	95-125	6	750	800t
1922			84	24992

Complement number is about 25 000 men (24992) for 84 ships
I think that the minimal could be 22 000 for minor Countries & the max about 32 000.

That depend also the "density" of Countries/players/Fleet you hope.

Jef  ;)

[Carthaginian]

Got an idea for a tech tree rolling around in my head...
Also thinking about some numbers for population- I'll have to go over them with Snip to see how they'll work with his economics ideas. We want a big enough starting navy that we can have some fun, you know.

Also, I'm working on some treaty terms, and playing with some ships of the appropriate era- and a bit earlier and later... to see how things would start and progress. I will say that you can do some things with 35,000 tons (+/- 10%) that might amaze some!

[snip]

econ rules are getting close

[Carthaginian]

The ship construction rules are getting close as well; tonight, maybe tomorrow morning for them.
Army/Air Force rules (such that they are) will be done by the end of the weekend.

The rules will have a bit of a unique structure to handle the tech progression... I think it's a wrinkle people will like.