Finish rules for SS quietly

[Jefgte]

I really dont know where to go to help with that you would need The Rock Doctor and those who were involved in that.  I honestly was never that interested in the Terra Nova spin off. 

Play France or Nova Francia...
Start in 1880 or 1920...

No problemo, I can SS & draw indifferently.
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We're looking hard at getting a rudimentary economic and land/air combat system going- both of them somewhere between 'Wesworld' and 'Axis & Allies' on the complexity scale. This will allow a lot more time for worrying about naval matters as opposed to getting involved in land wars that bog down the action.

That's exactly what I hope.
I like Aircrafts & Panzers but I am first, a "Battleships Lover".


Jef  ;)

[Nobody]

I agree, it should be possible to take part with minimal amount of bookkeeping. At the same time I wish there was more room to do things differently and not only in writing stories (which I'm 'not very good' at).
So if I was in charge of making rules I would try to make to 100% compatible versions. One short and straightforward and one with many possibilities - one of which would be the simple choice of course.

That said I'm looking forward to any proposal. And since I have some free time time know I would like to help you (two?) wherever i can.

[Carthaginian]

AFIK, I think Snip intends to make the economic rules as simple as possible; I'm also aiming for something just as simple as possible for the army & air force. When I say simple, I'm talking about the following:

1.) A Single Level of Organization
Army units will have only one single unit level, the Corps. Four Corps will be able to (after one quarter) be merged into an Army Group for a slight combat advantage... but that's it. Air Forces will have a single unit level, the Wing. Four Wings can become a 'Numbered' Air Force, with a similar combat bonus to that of an Army Group.
You won't be able to subdivide a Corps or Wing, you won't be able to deploy elements separately, and you won't be able to have 'special' units (with a single exception).
2.) Small Number of Unit Types
There will be Infantry and Armor Corps, along with Fighter and Bomber Wings and that's going to be it. These units are considered to have necessary support elements integral to their TO&E. Later, Anti-Aircraft 'sections' will be able to be purchased and attached- but that's about it. You don't have to worry about whether or not your Jungle unit or your Mountain unit is deployed in the right theater... because there ain't none.
3.) Focus on Naval Matters
The Naval rules will be rather developed and allow for significant flexibility... but they won't be complicated. N3 rules are going to represent the desired MAXIMUM complexity level. If we can go simpler, then we shall. I plan to keep the Submarine and MTB tables from N3, though there will be a 'modification point' system to determine things like number of torpedo tubes vs number of mines carried by a submarine.

We're yet to determine exactly how much each unit will cost... but the plan is to keep things small and simple.

[Guinness]

Thanks for your support  :)

At some point we may need to clean up the N4 forums here. Would you be able to help with that if we get to that stage?

Yeah, I'm still committed to forum upkeep, etc. as necessary.

[Darman]

2.) Small Number of Unit Types
There will be Infantry and Armor Corps, along with Fighter and Bomber Wings and that's going to be it. These units are considered to have necessary support elements integral to their TO&E. Later, Anti-Aircraft 'sections' will be able to be purchased and attached- but that's about it. You don't have to worry about whether or not your Jungle unit or your Mountain unit is deployed in the right theater... because there ain't none.

What if you started with an Infantry and Cavalry corps and just paid to motorize/mechanize them (similar to adding the Anti-aircraft element). I only suggest it because if we are starting at a 1900-level there wouldnt be an armored corps.  An Infantry corps would turn into a Heavy Armored Corps (as mobility of a Cavalry Corps but more firepower then an Infantry Corps).  A Cavalry corps would upgrade to a Light Armored Corps (proportionally more mobile than a Heavy Armored Corps but less firepower).  If this seems too complicated we don't have to run with it. 

Infantry Corps (mobility=2) (firepower=2)
Cavalry Corps (mobility=3) (firepower=1)
Heavy Armor (mobility=3) (firepower=3)
Light Armor (mobility=4) (firepower=2)

Or something like that.  The numbers arent exact just to give you an idea of what I mean. 

[Carthaginian]

We are likely to be starting at 1920's levels.
At that tech level, tanks are viable... even thought hey weren't widespread on Earth. This new world will already know WHAT they can build, and HOW they can build it- something that we didn't exactly know. Thus, there will be no horse cavalry to start with. This little bit of 'handwavium' will allow for some major hindsightus to be dealt with without having it cause problems.

[snip]

Don't worry, I'm chugging away on things. Just been hiking my but off these past few days and will be doing so till Friday. I'm thinking things wil be ready within a few weeks, just fiddling with numbers atm.

[Darman]

We are likely to be starting at 1920's levels.
At that tech level, tanks are viable... even thought hey weren't widespread on Earth. This new world will already know WHAT they can build, and HOW they can build it- something that we didn't exactly know. Thus, there will be no horse cavalry to start with. This little bit of 'handwavium' will allow for some major hindsightus to be dealt with without having it cause problems.

Okay 1920s makes sense.  Sorry I thought it was going to be earlier. 

[Jefgte]

1920 for Army & Airforces, but Warships start in 1900 I think.

built 50 000t from 1900 to 1909 - cost x 0.5 (25 000t)
built 50 000t from 1910 to 1915 - cost x 0.75 (37 500t)
built 60 000t from 1916 to 1919 - cost x 1 (60 000t)

We could increase global tonnage if you hope to have big BBs

Jef  ;)

[Valles]

Okay 1920s makes sense.  Sorry I thought it was going to be earlier.

Earlier does not necessarily invalidate the point, since the earliest starting date we discussed was 1900ish, late enough that someone who was determined to try could probably put together at least a basic tank.

What I'd like to know is, are we keeping Rock's setting?

[Carthaginian]

What I'd like to know is, are we keeping Rock's setting?

Yes and no, Valles.
We will be keeping the basic premise- that this is a far-future colony of mankind, that is has been around several hundred generations, and that we are just emerging from the coal-burning warship era into what we might consider 'modern' naval architecture.
Some of the things I'm considering tech-wise ATM:

NAVAL TECHS:
Start-up ships 1900- 1909: coal-fired, no turbines, guns of 12" or less, no more than 20,000t per ship.
Start-up ships 1910- 1915: coal-fired, oil sprayers, guns of 14" or less, no more than 25,000t per ship.
Start-up ships 1915- 1920: oil-Fired, triple turrets, guns of 15" or less, no more than 30,000t per ship.

Other issues like subs and aircraft are being worked out. Probably, aircraft will be hindered in other ways than the 'man eating bird' idea... but we'd like to keep aircraft approximately 10 years behind OTL in order to make them less viable as a weapon system and to protect the big-gun battleships longer. We might simply do as WesWorld and have a world-wide treaty that has prevented the use of aircraft in naval warfare and continues to regulate it's use. Submarines will also be regulated, will generally use the N3 chart to build, and will be considered 'damned un-English.'

The simplicity of the rules will mean that land combat will not just take a backseat, it will be a total sideline to naval warfare. I am very serious about simply using Axis and Allies as the basis for gaming out the land battles; we're here to build ships, not fight a land war in Asia (the very thing that seemed to kill N3). Aircraft will be similarly abstract, really you will only have Fighters (which protect against Bombers or attack Infantry or Armor) and Bombers (which can either Scout or destroy enemy Infrastructure). When we allow Carriers to come on the scene, their aircraft will be treated similarly.

We will probably keep the current map, though the close-up map will not be developed. I like Rock's idea of an 'Old World/New World' start, encouraging the development of overseas colonies as our nations grow; this will be a central feature of our game. I do plan to have a way of introducing PC's later if more people get interested in playing... so one or two small 'reservations' might be kept for that.
Animal life will largely be reptile and avian; mammals will be very small and very inconsequential. There will be reasons that mankind decided to make their settlements small and easily defended, and why civilization overall has remained in a small area compared to the size of the planet.
Finally, we've been here several thousand years- largely because we have to have enough population to support our militaries. You will have to watch the manpower of those ships you put in the water, because you will only have so many people to go around... and to get that whiz-bang modern Yamato-clone in the water, you might have to scrap two older cruisers or battleships!

[Valles]

Timeline-wise, my recommendation would honestly be that the year is 1920 After Landing, just to make it easy to keep terminology straight. Or 1905, maybe, but that's not a big deal either way.

Regarding aircraft, the 'treaty approach' has a number of advantages, but seems to me to be likely to be hard to explain in-character - 'How in the World did this happen?'. A shortage of exploitable aluminum ore deposits increasing the stuff's rarity and thereby retarding the technologies - like aero engines - requiring its use would seem to me to make more sense.

Either way, for my own part, I'd like to request that airship technology be in keeping with OTL and the tech limitation be restricted to airplanes. Given the vulnerability of the airship to proper ground fire, the cost of building the hangers they require, and so forth, I don't think that they'll have much functional utility beyond the scouting role...

...and looking damned cool, which is what I'm after.

My - passionate - objection to the startup system proposed for N4 (the on-earth game) was based in part on the arbitrary dictation of a global scope to the player's operations from the get-go, and also - more so - on the way the system attempted to dictate the players' rightful control over their own roleplaying and decision making within the territories expanded to. To get either effect in a 'vacuum' such as an empty alien planet with player-sited starting positions would require an active will to harm peoples' experience rather than the simple lack of manners and consideration, which is one of the reasons that I was, or am, so enthusiastic about Rocky's 'N4.5' concept, which this seems more than close enough to.

Which, boiled down by the removal of my harping on old feuds, means that I'm cool with this.

[Carthaginian]

Valles,

I'm not too concerned about whether we call the year 10,241, 3614 K.R., or 1920 A.S., or Six Monkey Slap-Slap... it's all the same. In all honesty, I was planning on trying to work the X920 formula as the start date- but it would probably be 3920 rather than 1920. This is simply to give the population some time to expand. ;)

Airships.
They will possibly be allowed by treaty- but will be completely forbidden from being used in any military capacity whatsoever... meaning not even as scouts. They make sense as load-lifters and for transporting over long distances; but I don't really even want to see them in military applications, since they had such narrow uses there, anyway.

Treaty Approach.
I'm going for something like Battletech's 'Ares Treaty' rather than a 'Washington/London Naval Treaty' clone. Our little colony noticed that not regulating the way that wars were fought lead to no end of heartache for Earth... so upon settling down and determining how they wanted their world to work, they laid out certain rules for the waging of war. They had the benefits of knowing what technology that they would have access to in the near (and not so near) future, and they placed limitations on what would be allowed and what would not. Some ideas I'm batting around:
1.) Assaulting you enemy's capital was forbidden, but outlying areas are not.
2.) Nuclear weapons shall not be developed.
3.) Landmines are not to be used within X miles of settled areas.

The overall goal is to make wars easier to fight by dent of making them less damaging to the civilian population... and by limiting the size of individual assets (like ships) to make them 'expendable.'

[Carthaginian]

A few more little thoughts: 1.) Navies might be limited by manpower rather than tonnage. Since we will have a mandatory need to monitor population, we might just cap military size at 10-20% of national population. This will 'feel' more natural than tonnage limits and also result in a smaller treaty to write.

[Jefgte]

That's not bad for me.
I'm just waiting the population/tonnage for Nova Francia to start seriously the Plan.

Jef  ;)