Nova Francia Fleet

Jefgte · May 29, 2012, 07:09:53 AM

Walter wrote:

QuoteLooking back at Jef's AC3... At 15000 tons, it would require 28 months to build according to the rules. Since it is a 1909 vessel, doesn't that mean that, according to section 3.01 of the Agreement Upon Limitations For Naval Vessels, it will have to be scrapped as it is is less than 50% complete on January 1, 3910?

I don't understand the same thing about the rules.

Ld 1909
Com 1911
life: 15y then, scrap in 1926 (3926)

Jef

KWorld · May 29, 2012, 07:10:50 AM

I agree, Jef. The only reason to scrap would be if the ship was in violation of some treaty, which it isn't.

Carthaginian · May 29, 2012, 10:28:07 AM

QuoteVessels existing at the time of this treaty are not required to be altered to meet these terms. Vessels under construction at the time this treaty takes effect are subject to the following restrictions:
(a) Vessels under construction and >75% complete may be completed as designed.
(b) Vessels under construction and <75% but >50% must be altered to meet the terms of the treaty, or they must be scrapped.
(c) Vessels under construction and <50% complete shall be scrapped in accordance with the terms of the treaty.

It was written with the intent that any vessel that didn't meet the terms of the treaty and was <50% complete would be scrapped.
Since it meets the terms, it doesn't have to be.
Also, the 15 year lifespan thing is only for ships before the treaty. Those constructed afterward have no such restriction.

Walter · May 29, 2012, 11:30:28 AM

QuoteIt was written with the intent that any vessel that didn't meet the terms of the treaty and was <50% complete would be scrapped.
Since it meets the terms, it doesn't have to be.

When I read that bit, it reads as applying to all ships and not just the ships not meeting the terms of the treaty. So that is why I said that.

Carthaginian · May 29, 2012, 12:22:33 PM

Quote from: Walter on May 29, 2012, 11:30:28 AM
QuoteIt was written with the intent that any vessel that didn't meet the terms of the treaty and was <50% complete would be scrapped.
Since it meets the terms, it doesn't have to be.
When I read that bit, it reads as applying to all ships and not just the ships not meeting the terms of the treaty. So that is why I said that.

Some 'readability' work will take place on the treaty this week and next week leading to start-up.
Till then, ask questions like crazy- that way I'll know where to fine-tune things!

Jefgte · May 29, 2012, 03:53:13 PM

Ok, If I understand, the last year before start the game, 1909, the limitation is 999t to have complete ships in 1910.

Jef

snip · May 29, 2012, 04:07:36 PM

Quote from: Jefgte on May 29, 2012, 03:53:13 PM
Ok, If I understand, the last year before start the game, 1909, the limitation is 999t to have complete ships in 1910.

Jef

Yes, any ship who's construction time could not have elapsed between lay down and game start would have to complete the remaining time. It is reasonable and allowable to have ships still under construction at game start, but for bookkeeping reasons I personally wont.

Jefgte · May 30, 2012, 06:32:30 AM

Testing a 1909-995t Coastal Gunboat

TGB, Nova Francia Coastal Defender laid down 1909

Displacement:
   808 t light; 860 t standard; 995 t normal; 1 103 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (250.00 ft / 246.00 ft) x 30.85 ft x (8.74 / 9.47 ft)
   (76.20 m / 74.98 m) x 9.40 m x (2.66 / 2.89 m)

Armament:
2 - 4.72" / 120 mm 16.0 cal guns - 46.68lbs / 21.17kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1909 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 - 4.72" / 120 mm 16.0 cal guns - 46.68lbs / 21.17kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1909 Model
     2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 12.97lbs / 5.88kg shells, 400 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1909 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 - 0.52" / 13.2 mm 76.0 cal guns - 0.08lbs / 0.04kg shells, 3 000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1909 Model
     2 x 2 row twin mounts on sides amidships
Weight of broadside 239 lbs / 108 kg
Main Torpedoes
2 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m torpedoes - 0.832 t each, 1.665 t total
   In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes
2nd Torpedoes
2 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m torpedoes - 0.832 t each, 1.665 t total
   In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes
Mines
40 - 551.16 lbs / 250.00 kg mines - 9.842 t total
   in Above water - Stern racks/rails

Armour:
- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.40" / 10 mm     -           -
   2nd:   0.40" / 10 mm     -           -
   3rd:   0.40" / 10 mm     -           -
   4th:   0.40" / 10 mm     -           -

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 4 567 ihp / 3 407 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 3 000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 242 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   88 - 115

Cost:
   £0.086 million / $0.344 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 47 tons, 4.7 %
     - Guns: 28 tons, 2.8 %
     - Weapons: 19 tons, 1.9 %
   Armour: 9 tons, 0.9 %
     - Armament: 9 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 348 tons, 35.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 373 tons, 37.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 187 tons, 18.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 31 tons, 3.1 %
     - Hull below water: 6 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 10 tons
     - Above deck: 15 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     953 lbs / 432 Kg = 18.1 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.35
   Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 10.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 77 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.39
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.28

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low forecastle, rise forward of midbreak,
     a ram bow and a round stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.525 / 0.537
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.97 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15.68 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 1.00 ft / 0.30 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 12.47 ft / 3.80 m, 9.85 ft / 3.00 m
     - Forward deck:   20.00 %, 12.47 ft / 3.80 m, 12.47 ft / 3.80 m
     - Aft deck:   42.00 %, 9.85 ft / 3.00 m, 9.85 ft / 3.00 m
     - Quarter deck:   18.00 %, 9.85 ft / 3.00 m, 9.85 ft / 3.00 m
     - Average freeboard:      10.58 ft / 3.23 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 125.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 107.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 5 174 Square feet or 481 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 121 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 48 lbs/sq ft or 235 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 2.06
      - Overall: 1.00
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Short gun De Bange 120mm - 16 cal - Mv525m/s - Rof 3/mn - range max 12400m

Jefgte · May 30, 2012, 08:22:47 AM

Last Plan update & infos

1895	CGB1	800t	4	3200
1895	SGB1	2350t	4	9400
1896	CL1	4400t	4	17600
1896	TB1	500t	8	4000
1897	BB1	12400t	2	24600
1897	EC1	7600t	4	30400
1898	SGB2	2350t	4	9400
1898	BB2	12400t	2	24600
1899	CL2	4500	4	18000
1899	TB2	500	12	6000
1900	EC 2	7600t	4	30400
1900	CGB2	850t	4	3400
1901	BB3	12400t	2	24600
1901	SGB	2500	4	10000
1902	DD1	950t	12	11400
1902	CL3	4800t	6	28800
1903	GB3	850t	6	5100
1903	AC1	11250t	2	22500
1904	TB3	500t	8	4000
1904	BB4	18000t	2	36000
1905	CL4	7000t	2	14000
1905	DD2	1200	12	14400
1906	AC2	14850t	2	29300
1906	BB5	20000t	2	40000
1907	SGB	2500	4	10000
1907	AC3	15000t	2	30000
1908	CL5	7000t	2	14000
1908	DD3	1200t	12	14400
1909	CGB5	995t	6	5970
1909	TB4	500t	6	3000

CGB	20
SGB	16
TB	34
DD	36
CL	18
EC	8
AC	6
BB	10
	148

CGB are Coastal GunBoat - 1000t max-100mm guns- speed 18 to 20kts - range inf to 3000nm - they are use for coastal patrols, harbor protection & are able to engage DDs.

SGB are Squadron GunBoat - 3000t Max - 140mm guns - speed 18 to 20 kts - range 5000nm - They are use to escort & protect the Battleline vs DDs & TBs. They could be use too as light cruisers & station ship.

EC are Escort Cruiser - Escort is the job of the old 18kts Armored Cruisers.
To be serious in the job, all ECs & ACs carry 240mm guns.
ECs use the 240mm D'Entrecasteau gun/turret (T1x240-40cal-mlle 1893)
ACs use the 240mm gun/turret from Danton class (T2x240-50cal-mlle 1902)

Jef

Jefgte · June 01, 2012, 04:14:32 AM

First Escort Destroyer test

DE1, Nova Francia DE laid down 1909

Displacement:
   697 t light; 770 t standard; 995 t normal; 1 175 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (262.00 ft / 262.00 ft) x 32.80 ft x (9.01 / 10.16 ft)
   (79.86 m / 79.86 m) x 10.00 m x (2.74 / 3.10 m)

Armament:
2 - 3.95" / 100 mm 45.0 cal guns - 31.13lbs / 14.12kg shells, 300 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1909 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 3.95" / 100 mm 45.0 cal guns - 31.13lbs / 14.12kg shells, 300 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1909 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 - 0.52" / 13.2 mm 76.0 cal guns - 0.09lbs / 0.04kg shells, 3 000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1909 Model
     2 x 2 row twin mounts on sides amidships
Weight of broadside 312 lbs / 141 kg
Main Torpedoes
2 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m torpedoes - 0.832 t each, 1.665 t total
   In 2 sets of deck mounted carriage/fixed tubes
2nd Torpedoes
2 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m torpedoes - 0.832 t each, 1.665 t total
   In 2 sets of deck mounted centre rotating tubes

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Ends:   0.60" / 15 mm     16.40 ft / 5.00 m   7.86 ft / 2.40 m
     245.60 ft / 74.86 m Unarmoured ends

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.40" / 10 mm     -           -
   2nd:   0.40" / 10 mm     -           -
   3rd:   0.40" / 10 mm     -           -

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 9 008 shp / 6 720 Kw = 24.00 kts
   Range 5 000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 406 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   88 - 115

Cost:
   £0.099 million / $0.396 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 62 tons, 6.2 %
     - Guns: 56 tons, 5.6 %
     - Weapons: 5 tons, 0.5 %
   Armour: 14 tons, 1.4 %
     - Belts: 3 tons, 0.3 %
     - Armament: 11 tons, 1.1 %
   Machinery: 424 tons, 42.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 189 tons, 19.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 298 tons, 29.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 9 tons, 0.9 %
     - Hull below water: 2 tons
     - On freeboard deck: 5 tons
     - Above deck: 2 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     404 lbs / 183 Kg = 13.1 x 4.0 " / 100 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.76
   Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 9.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 73 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.23
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.30

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low forecastle,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.450 / 0.471
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.99 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16.19 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 12.47 ft / 3.80 m, 10.50 ft / 3.20 m
     - Forward deck:   20.00 %, 12.47 ft / 3.80 m, 12.47 ft / 3.80 m
     - Aft deck:   42.00 %, 12.47 ft / 3.80 m, 12.47 ft / 3.80 m
     - Quarter deck:   18.00 %, 12.47 ft / 3.80 m, 12.47 ft / 3.80 m
     - Average freeboard:      12.23 ft / 3.73 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 156.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 114.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 5 482 Square feet or 509 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 94 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 25 lbs/sq ft or 121 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.45
      - Longitudinal: 1.44
      - Overall: 0.51
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Trial speed 25kts

Walter · June 01, 2012, 04:19:46 AM

Shouldn't cross-sectional strength be a bit higher?

Jefgte · June 01, 2012, 05:21:21 AM

With Cross Sectional correction:

DE, Nova Francia DE laid down 1909

Displacement:
   706 t light; 770 t standard; 995 t normal; 1 175 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (295.26 ft / 295.26 ft) x 32.80 ft x (8.67 / 9.71 ft)
   (90.00 m / 90.00 m) x 10.00 m x (2.64 / 2.96 m)

Armament:
2 - 3.95" / 100 mm 45.0 cal guns - 31.13lbs / 14.12kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1909 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 3.95" / 100 mm 45.0 cal guns - 31.13lbs / 14.12kg shells, 250 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1909 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 - 0.52" / 13.2 mm 76.0 cal guns - 0.09lbs / 0.04kg shells, 3 000 per gun
     Machine guns in deck mounts, 1909 Model
     2 x 2 row twin mounts on sides amidships
Weight of broadside 312 lbs / 141 kg
Main Torpedoes
2 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m torpedoes - 0.832 t each, 1.665 t total
   In 1 sets of deck mounted carriage/fixed tubes
2nd Torpedoes
2 - 17.7" / 450 mm, 18.00 ft / 5.49 m torpedoes - 0.832 t each, 1.665 t total
   In 1 sets of deck mounted centre rotating tubes

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Ends:   0.60" / 15 mm     11.82 ft / 3.60 m   7.86 ft / 2.40 m
     283.44 ft / 86.39 m Unarmoured ends

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.40" / 10 mm     -           -
   2nd:   0.40" / 10 mm     -           -
   3rd:   0.40" / 10 mm     -           -

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 8 215 shp / 6 129 Kw = 24.00 kts
   Range 5 000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 405 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   88 - 115

Cost:
   £0.097 million / $0.387 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 62 tons, 6.2 %
     - Guns: 56 tons, 5.6 %
     - Weapons: 5 tons, 0.5 %
   Armour: 13 tons, 1.3 %
     - Belts: 2 tons, 0.2 %
     - Armament: 11 tons, 1.1 %
   Machinery: 407 tons, 40.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 217 tons, 21.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 289 tons, 29.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 8 tons, 0.8 %
     - On freeboard deck: 4 tons
     - Above deck: 4 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     467 lbs / 212 Kg = 15.1 x 4.0 " / 100 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.66
   Metacentric height 2.2 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 9.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 78 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.24
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.40

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low forecastle,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.415 / 0.437
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.18 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 11.82 ft / 3.60 m, 9.85 ft / 3.00 m
     - Forward deck:   20.00 %, 11.82 ft / 3.60 m, 11.82 ft / 3.60 m
     - Aft deck:   40.00 %, 11.82 ft / 3.60 m, 11.82 ft / 3.60 m
     - Quarter deck:   20.00 %, 11.82 ft / 3.60 m, 11.82 ft / 3.60 m
     - Average freeboard:      11.58 ft / 3.53 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 149.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 137.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 6 017 Square feet or 559 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 26 lbs/sq ft or 129 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.09
      - Overall: 0.54
   Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Excellent accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Trial speed 25kts

KWorld · June 01, 2012, 05:38:26 AM

Is the low forecastle intentional? If so, what's it for?

> - Forecastle: 20.00 %, 11.82 ft / 3.60 m, 9.85 ft / 3.00 m

Jefgte · June 01, 2012, 05:51:17 AM

QuoteIs the low forecastle intentional? If so, what's it for?

Yes, it is.
That made a dever on the forecastle & increase the protection of the fore gun/turret
vs bow waves. That's also Nova Francia styl &...What a nice silhouette.

Modifications on all SS & drawings.

Jef

KWorld · June 01, 2012, 06:05:53 AM

If you're wanting to give more protection to the fore turret from waves, wouldn't it make more sense to raise the aft end of the forecastle ABOVE the deck height, rather than letting in more water to splash the deck and the fore turret? Ie, have the forecastle be at, for example, 4.5m fore and aft, with a .9m drop to the main deck height of 3.6m? This would be similar to the pictures of your cruisers earlier in this thread: the forecastle is raised above the height of the main deck, rather than dropping below it at the aft end.