Preliminary Rules

[Carthaginian]

Nobody... you are kidding, right? You planning on copywriting this spreadsheet or something?
In plain English, explain how this works. Quit dodging the question. As for splitting... that is up to Rocky, as he's organizing the reboot and the final arbiter of rules.

Okay I will try to explain a couple of ideas, but not what/how it is actually done. Btw, shouldn't we split this?

It is becoming less like you are UNABLE to explain what you are doing in the spreadsheet, and is very very rapidly starting to look like you are UNWILLING. If you are going to totally discount the validity of discussion and critique of YOUR process in the same manner that you are wanting to discuss and critique SOMEONE ELSE'S process... then, frankly, I will simply ignore your suggestions and spreadsheet until you give me the same kind of totally out-in-the-open explanation of your proposed rule system which I have so courteously given you.

Thank you for your understanding.

Going to my brother's place for a Star Wars Saga game. Back at some time tonight.

[Nobody]

In plain English, explain how this works. Quit dodging the question. As for splitting... that is up to Rocky, as he's organizing the reboot and the final arbiter of rules.[..]
It is becoming less like you are UNABLE to explain what you are doing in the spreadsheet, and is very very rapidly starting to look like you are UNWILLING. If you are going to totally discount the validity of discussion and critique of YOUR process in the same manner that you are wanting to discuss and critique SOMEONE ELSE'S process... then, frankly, I will simply ignore your suggestions and spreadsheet until you give me the same kind of totally out-in-the-open explanation of your proposed rule system which I have so courteously given you.

Thank you for your understanding.

Going to my brother's place for a Star Wars Saga game. Back at some time tonight.

Well English is part of the problem and I won't be able to give longer answer today(my time).
I will gladly explain my ideas, however be a bit more specific. Are there, of the ideas posted above, some I don't need to explain? Which of the concepts (you do not understand) do you want me to explain first?

[Carthaginian]

In plain English, explain how this works. Quit dodging the question. As for splitting... that is up to Rocky, as he's organizing the reboot and the final arbiter of rules.[..]
It is becoming less like you are UNABLE to explain what you are doing in the spreadsheet, and is very very rapidly starting to look like you are UNWILLING. If you are going to totally discount the validity of discussion and critique of YOUR process in the same manner that you are wanting to discuss and critique SOMEONE ELSE'S process... then, frankly, I will simply ignore your suggestions and spreadsheet until you give me the same kind of totally out-in-the-open explanation of your proposed rule system which I have so courteously given you.

Thank you for your understanding.

Going to my brother's place for a Star Wars Saga game. Back at some time tonight.

Well English is part of the problem and I won't be able to give longer answer today(my time).
I will gladly explain my ideas, however be a bit more specific. Are there, of the ideas posted above, some I don't need to explain? Which of the concepts (you do not understand) do you want me to explain first?

Ich sprechen eine bischen Deutsch... though if you want me to do something other than 1.) read a train schedule, 2.) drive somewhere 3.) translate street signs for a traffic report or 4.) bail some dumbass out of jail for roll call- well, I'm pretty limited.

What do I want explained?
I want your process explained as well as I explained mine, and as easily understood. I don't want to know where you plug it in the spreadsheet, I want to know what happens when you plug those numbers into the spreadsheet. I want to know what makes it work.

What do I want explained first?
I want the first step explained first. Then I want the second, third and fourth steps explained... right on down to the last step. I want them laid out as clearly and concisely as I laid my process out- and just because it isn't simple doesn't mean it can't be clear.

What concepts do I want explained?
I want ALL the concepts explained- not for me in particular.... I want it where EVERYONE can see what's going on and come in and look at things. I want everything explained for everyone's sake.

[The Rock Doctor]

Time out, guys.  Ease up.

[Valles]

Here's a diversion from that, then: are Armory Slots required for the production of ground-forces' small arms? If so, is that 1 slot per pistol/rifle/LMG/whatever, or 'This slot produces your army's guns'? What is the cut-off point between 'Small Arms' and 'Guns'?

My favored approach would be to say that 'as many small arms as you need' collectively occupy one Armory Slot, and that the they be defined as 'weapons of 1" bore or smaller'.

I like the idea of City Construction not providing the population and economy to fill the new settlement 'gracis' because if it did, then the 'optimum' thing to do would be to concentrate everything on building new cities and outgrowing everyone around you to the point that the military technology used will be completely irrelevant. This might be just the thing in a 4X game, but I really don't think it's consistent with either our 'reality guideline' principles or the idea that military design should be a key focus point. If we then go with the idea that we shouldn't be able to grow 'at will', then I think that the GNP/percentage system is a good way to handle it.

[Darman]

Here's a diversion from that, then: are Armory Slots required for the production of ground-forces' small arms? If so, is that 1 slot per pistol/rifle/LMG/whatever, or 'This slot produces your army's guns'? What is the cut-off point between 'Small Arms' and 'Guns'?

My favored approach would be to say that 'as many small arms as you need' collectively occupy one Armory Slot, and that the they be defined as 'weapons of 1" bore or smaller'.

I was wondering this same thing myself.  My opinion is that you set an armory for "army production" and it manufactures all the lighter weapons your military forces need up to a limit of (as an example) 1 company per 4 month turn.  Which means you can only equip 1 new company per 4 month turn, or 3 companies each year.  You could thus buy surplus equipment capacity from an ally if you wanted to equip more than 1 company per turn.  This would also prevent people from having one arsenal devoted to military production and equipping a brigade of 15 companies.  It is one thing to be able to afford to equip them but another to have the excess capacity to produce the equipment.  And I'm assuming vehicles count as "equipment" on par with weapons for simplicity purposes, although if it was desired we could call for both a military equipment arsenal and a military vehicles arsenal.  I would prefer one arsenal for both with the limitation of equipping just one company per turn. 

I also think that even lighter naval guns like 3in/4.7in/etc should be produced in an armory as well.  And just like the army equipment arsenal for weapons between 1.0in and 2.9in weapons should have an arsenal devoted to them.  Which means that for guns between 1.0in and 2.9in a designer can have as much variety as he wants if he possess one arsenal.  I can elaborate if need be. 

[Carthaginian]

My favored approach would be to say that 'as many small arms as you need' collectively occupy one Armory Slot, and that the they be defined as 'weapons of 1" bore or smaller'.

My opinion is that you set an armory for "army production" and it manufactures all the lighter weapons your military forces need up to a limit of (as an example) 1 company per 4 month turn.  Which means you can only equip 1 new company per 4 month turn, or 3 companies each year. 

Darman, a blowback operated SMG of .380 ACP/9mm Kurz can be built out of stuff you can scavenge  in a junkyard using nothing more than a well-equipped trade school machine shop. A dozen determined men in that situation could build enough weapons to outfit a company of soldiers in 4 months; they do it all the time in places like Chechnya, Pakistan and Afghanistan in far worse conditions. The weapons won't (usually) be armory-quality, granted, but they can be effective (and occasionally, damn near professional quality).

I'm leaning towards Valles' suggestion that one 'Small Arms Armory' can build 'enough' weapons to supply any amount of personal weapons. Take a look at the output of a a major arms manufacturer over the course of a year. Literally thousands of firearms come out one of their facilities each year.

One facility for Marine Corps production should be sufficient.

I do agree with you, though, on the idea that perhaps one facility should be sufficient for the smallest bore naval weapons- like anything =/<57mm.

[Valles]

Darman, you're suggesting that Armories be allowed to produce 'any gun smaller than 1in' or 'any gun between 1in and 3in' or 'military vehicles of any sort' or 'any two specific gun designs larger than 3in'?

I figure, personally, that a 25mm autocannon firing explosive rounds should be enough gun for even a truly honked off sauropod-equivalent, which is why I drew the 'small arms' line there. Complexity or difficulty of production, I don't know anything about and therefore didn't factor in.

[Carthaginian]

I figure, personally, that a 25mm autocannon firing explosive rounds should be enough gun for even a truly honked off sauropod-equivalent, which is why I drew the 'small arms' line there. Complexity or difficulty of production, I don't know anything about and therefore didn't factor in.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_2cm-70_mk234_gun_diagram_pic.jpg
The Oerlikon 20mm that the USN used seems to be a pretty damn simple weapon. Though it will require some pretty damn heavy equipment for the dealing with steel of the necessary strength... well, the machining doesn't look to be that complex.
In fact, here's the whole "-10 TM" (basic level operator's manual) for the weapon, if anyone is interested.

If sufficient materials were available, this looks simple enough to make enough to put one in every squad of troops a NewWorld nation might be able to field.

[miketr]

My favored approach would be to say that 'as many small arms as you need' collectively occupy one Armory Slot, and that the they be defined as 'weapons of 1" bore or smaller'.

My opinion is that you set an armory for "army production" and it manufactures all the lighter weapons your military forces need up to a limit of (as an example) 1 company per 4 month turn.  Which means you can only equip 1 new company per 4 month turn, or 3 companies each year. 

Darman, a blowback operated SMG of .380 ACP/9mm Kurz can be built out of stuff you can scavenge  in a junkyard using nothing more than a well-equipped trade school machine shop. A dozen determined men in that situation could build enough weapons to outfit a company of soldiers in 4 months; they do it all the time in places like Chechnya, Pakistan and Afghanistan in far worse conditions. The weapons won't (usually) be armory-quality, granted, but they can be effective (and occasionally, damn near professional quality).

I'm leaning towards Valles' suggestion that one 'Small Arms Armory' can build 'enough' weapons to supply any amount of personal weapons. Take a look at the output of a a major arms manufacturer over the course of a year. Literally thousands of firearms come out one of their facilities each year.

One facility for Marine Corps production should be sufficient.

I do agree with you, though, on the idea that perhaps one facility should be sufficient for the smallest bore naval weapons- like anything =/<57mm.

There is a difference between a Khyber Pass setup and a full arms factory.  One is hand made copies while the other are massed produce.  You can have garbage quality at either so I will ignore quality issues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khyber_Pass_Copy

Michael

[Carthaginian]

Michael,

I am more than well aware of the 'Khyber Pass ' nickname of hand-made gun.
I have actually laid hands on some... the poorer sort.
The Webley in the article looks spot-on (and I'm a Webley owner), they even have the patent stamp in the right place! Were it not for the lack of arsenal markings, this could probably pass for genuine- and possibly would if you handed it to some pawnbrokers.

The Webley is where I'm going with the conversation- or at least down the correct street, but not quite far enough to find the right block. Once these weapons are manufactured in large quantities and possess interchangeable parts (which some do), the line between 'home-made copy' and 'mass produced' begins to blur more than a little. The only thing that separates some of these guys from small-scale legitimate arms manufacturers is a wink and nod from their respective governments!

Now, explain to me the difference between a small shop making weapons with interchangeability and a 'factory-produced' firearm. Sure, the small shop has men who actually pass the parts from station to station, but they are still making the same kind of product to the same standards. Anyone with a lathe, a drill press, a good metal saw, and some hand tools can make firearms that are serviceable.

Add in properly mounted and leveled machine tools, of the sort which exist in most technical schools in the United States, you can begin making things that are interchangeable. Remember, by this point you are already dealing with equipment that is light-years above that which, say, the Springfield Armory had when it opened. Granted, this setup is missing a button rifler... but so was the Springfield Armory. Of course, you can buy those... Rifling Machines for Sale, these were for sale for $10k per copy- a bit steep, but very available.

Now that you have the button rifling machine, you are able to make rifled weapons. You're still probably heating the metal with a bed of hot coals and some 'by gosh and golly'- but even this is tolerable if you know the alloy content of the steel. With this knowledge and a decent way to measure the temperature of your annealing/tempering processes, you can get a general idea of your progress by the color of the metal during the process... after all, this is how it was done for centuries! At this stage, if you have decent equipment and good masters, you are essentially manufacturing factory-grade arms on a small scale.

[Valles]

I don't think that it really matters either way; we are, after all, talking about factories - facilities and personnel capable of turning out indefinite numbers of weapons that may weigh more than the entire shops you're arguing over. These are fully professional operations - and from what you're saying, what I'm taking away is that the scale of operation needed to turn out, say, four or five different models of man-portable weapon in quantities of hundreds-to-low-thousands can easily fit in the floorspace that would be needed to build 12in guns, given how much less is needed to produce only dozens.

[Carthaginian]

...what I'm taking away is that the scale of operation needed to turn out, say, four or five different models of man-portable weapon in quantities of hundreds-to-low-thousands can easily fit in the floorspace that would be needed to build 12in guns, given how much less is needed to produce only dozens.

And I fully agree with you.
The only reason I brought up shop-built weapons was to illustrate to Darman that you were right that only a single small arms factory was necessary to build as many weapons as any military might need... because a determined group of men in a shop could build serviceable weapons in the numbers he was talking about in a matter of months.

[The Rock Doctor]

On torpedoes:  I'd prefer some standardization.  A basic table for the usual sizes, with three options:

-Short range, big warhead
-Medium range, medium warhead
-Long range, small warhead

Submarine torpedoes can simply use the short range and medium warhead of the above.

On arsenals:  No, I did not think it was really necessary to have slots for small arms.

[Jefgte]

I agree with Rocky,

Globaly I hope to have realist , simple & not 25 pages of rules with calculation boards everywhere.

Use standardisation & NavWeapons armament...I think.


Jef  ;)