Preliminary Rules

[Nobody]

I'm open to names.  I didn't want people getting confused with that television show called "Terra Nova".  We could call it, "Rocky's Deathworld Naval Carnage Extravaganza" if y'all wish.

I don't know any TV show with that name, but if you don't want to use it how about:

• Terra Incognita
  
• Terra Maledicta
  
• Terra Mala
  
• Terra Daemonia
  
• Terra Infesta
  
• Terra Noxa
  
• Mundus Novus
  
• Mundus Maledictus
  
• Mundus Malus
  
• Mundus Deamonius
  
• Mundus Infestus
  
• Mundus Noxius
  
• ...
  ... Google can be really helpful ^^
  
  I still like "Terra Nova" best though.

[Carthaginian]

Terra Nova, Earth 2... that stuff's been done. ;)

Rehashing the name of a planet that lies in their distant past might seem silly to people that came on a slow boat. I say we ditch any reference to Earth-That-Was and let this be something entirely new. Hell, the different peoples of our world might *gasp* have different names by this point (even if they all translate to the same thing).

I suggest that we simply agree that humanity has simply taken to calling this 'the world' and hang the formal name! ;)

[Valles]

...Hmm.

How 'bout Tellus, for the proper name? With 'world' mirroring general usages of 'earth', the way Alpha Centauri used 'planet' to refer to Chiron.

[Carthaginian]

OK... another kick at the can on torpedo rules. I think that covers just about every possible variable that people could want except warhead size, while keeping things as simple and clean as possible. I apologize in advance for any possible 'freaking fractions' or 'damnable decimals' that must be resultantly rounded.

Torpedoes

1.) A  torpedo's length is measured by overall length in METERS and the diameter is determined by overall diameter in CENTIMETERS; any non-metric torpedoes will use the nearest length in meters or diameter in millimeters rounded down for determining their maximum range.

2.) A torpedo must be at least 5m in length but cannot exceed 10m in length. A torpedo will have a maximum base range (MBR) of 1000m X (length in meters). MBR will be modified by diameter and speed settings, and the modified range can be either <4000m or >10,000m due to these factors.

3.) A torpedo must be at least 350mm in diameter, but can be no larger than 650mm in diameter. Torpedoes will receive  the following modifications to MBR according to diameter: 350mm-399mm = -1000m, 400-449mm = -500m, 450mm-549mm = no modifier, 550mm-599mm = +500m, 600mm-650mm = +1000m.

4.) A torpedo's maximum base speed (MBS) is measured in knots and is determined by its diameter: 350mm-399mm = -10 knots, 400-449mm = -5 knots, 450mm-549mm = 35 knots, 550mm-599mm = +5 knots, 600mm-650mm = +10 knots. Additionally, the torpedo's MBS is modified by the torpedo's overall length, with each meter over 5m in length adding +1 knot.

5.) A torpedo will have three range settings, which modify its MBR and MBS accordingly. A torpedo's modified range will be rounded down to the nearest 100m and modified speed will be rounded down to the nearest 1/4 knot. Slow - +50% range, 75% speed; Normal - no modifier; Fast - -50% range, +34% speed. Range settings must be declared at time of launch, and cannot be changed thereafter.

6.) Torpedo warhead strength is set by Springsharp estimates. This cannot be modified in any way due to the way that Springsharp estimates the mass of the warhead relative to the overall mass of the torpedo. All torpedoes will use the Springsharp estimate for number of non-critical torpedoes of that size to sink a given ship.

[Nobody]

Carth, that's all nice and simple and I like many of your ideas, but what about tech progression?
Oh, and what about different propulsion systems? (wet-heater, pure oxygen, closed loop drive, Walter turbine)

Other notes:
- at 75%(-25%) speed, the range would increase by 77.778% say 75% not 50
- for a 50% reduction in Range I would expect an increase in speed of 40-41%
- an increase in range of 50% would be achieved by a speed of 81-82%(18-19 slower)
- doubling the range could be expected at 70-71% speed

[Carthaginian]

Carth, that's all nice and simple and I like many of your ideas, but what about tech progression?

Other notes:
- at 75%(-25%) speed, the range would increase by 77.778% say 75% not 50
- for a 50% reduction in Range I would expect an increase in speed of 40-41%
- an increase in range of 50% would be achieved by a speed of 81-82%(18-19 slower)
- doubling the range could be expected at 70-71% speed

I used the base figures for the Mk.14 Mod 3 torp, rounded a bit to make things simpler.

   4,500 yards (4,100 m) / 45 knots (my fast setting)
   9,000 yards (8,200 m) / 33.5 knots (my normal setting)
   14,000 yards (12,800 m) / 26.5 knots (my slow setting)

While the progression doesn't match my percentages exactly the differences are small.
I called it close enough for government work and let it be. That's why the figures look like they do; it is not arbitrary or imaginary- it's based on a real torpedo, and one of the most widely deployed in history. I don't think we could come up with a better example of an 'average torpedo.'

Tech progression... I'd simply say that the largest torpedoes must be researched. This would mean that the faster, longer-ranged and more powerful torpedoes would require research, while everything up to a certain point (say, the 500mm-549mm, which would include the 'standard' 533mm size) would be considered 'starter tech.'

[Carthaginian]

Nobody, I understand the desire to make things more complicated in order to bring a greater variety into the sim... but it gets to the point where the quest for options bogs things down so damn much that you never get to play for trying to design the rules.

Anyway, it's 0330 and frankly, I'm too bloody tired to carry on any further.
I'm going to go to sleep now and will be back after I go fishing tomorrow about 1500ish CST.

If you can figure out a fairly simple way to incorporate different propulsion systems, then let me know.
Oh, and why not include compressed air, pre-spun flywheels and batteries for good measure? ;)
Sometimes, it's possible to add so much you spoil the soup.

[Nobody]

Yea true it's quite the balancing act between possibilities and playability.
Meanwhile a comparism

G7a kn    km    %v    %d    expected    ,,η" 30    12    75%    160%    177,8%    0,9 40    7,5    100%    100%    100%    1 44    6    110%    80%    82,6%    0,97 Mk.14 Mod 3 kn    yards    %v    %d    expected    ,,η" 26,5    14000    79%    156%    160%    0,97 33,5    9000    100%    100%    100%    1 45    4500    134%    50%    55%    0,9 Carthagian         v    d    expected    ,,η"         75%    150%    178%    0,84         134%    50%    56%    0,9 So yea its close, but I would say you rounded in the wrong direction(reducing both speed and range for the slow setting) which resulted in me immediately getting the feeling it was too far off.

[Carthaginian]

So yea its close, but I would say you rounded in the wrong direction(reducing both speed and range for the slow setting) which resulted in me immediately getting the feeling it was too far off.

Well, it's eventually gonna give someone the screaming heebie-jeebies, so I picked the things that were easiest to make it easier on the mods when it came time for the math. As far as rounding things down... well, that's how Battletech, all ADB games, and (IIRC) Crimson Skies did it, so that's how I did it.

Amazing how much a four hour nap and the possibility of some strangely out-of-season fishing weather can improve your POV.

EDIT: Also (for simplicity's sake) we can say that the slightly lower 'power bands' on my torpedoes are accounted for by the fact that everyone standardized on wakeless electric torpedoes. As the electric motors 1.) make the most sense for propulsion and 2.) would be a more 'mature tech' on our fictional world, it wouldn't be an impossible occurrence. ;)

EDIT, PART DEUX: Wow... only 6% off!
Not bad for a nurse who's only military experience lies on the ground.

[Nobody]

Okay I tried something myself... lots of try and error less scientific thinking.

I normed all electric levels (E1-E6). Two pure Oxygen (O1-O2), a closed-loop (C1) and a Walter-turbine (W1) are also fixed. The normal wet-heaters aren't that easy (called them S for steam). S4-S5 are normed to the German G7a and S3 to the British Mark VIII, but it's hardly worse than S4. The earlier level are a mess, couldn't decide which torpedo I should choose for norming. S6 and later are missing, didn't see a post-WW2 wet-heater.

Go and play a bit with the Table1 - then tell me what you think.

I practise it shouldn't be too difficult, any Torpedo is defined by its tech level, caliber, length, warhead weight and the 2 speed settings.

[Carthaginian]

Does everything have to involve a spreadsheet and a table and a dozen examples?

Frankly, I know not a damnable thing about Excel, man... not a sausage.
What I see here makes no sense as an outline for a ruleset. I see a lot of statistics but absolutely nothing regarding how they would work within gameplay. As you have included nothing practicable about how the table was assembled- neither instructions nor intent- no one can follow what you are doing.

All I can identify for certain is that you have left out the torpedo that I did include in my relatively easy attempt at a well-explained, plainly laid out ruleset (why?). If you can present me with something akin to what I presented then I'll be able look at it, see where you are going with the idea, and be able to tell you more about what I tihnk is good and bad about it.

It's really not that I damn well don't appreciate the effort... it's just I have no idea what the hell is going on there without some kind of explanation that extends beyond 'I created a table with a bunch of examples and some numbers and stuff.'

English, man... plain English, with words and not spreadsheets.
That's how someone old-fashioned like me rolls. :-[

[Nobody]

Sorry didn't think about that. (It appears all so obvious if you made it yourself)

I chose the German ones, because

• the data was easier to find (at least for me)
  
• the data I found was more consistent. For your US(?) Mark 14 for example, I found vastly different speed settings and ranges.
  I also though it would be useful to look at the progression of a single country, so that I can actually see the improvements between generations and can decide were to draw the line.
  
  The examples were not intended to examples. Its just what I used to calibrate the thing.
  
  USAGE
  Go to Table1 and search for an empty line (e.g. 27, 30 or 35) or delete everything between A11 and G40.
  Go back to column A. Insert a name or description.
  Column B: choose a tech level (I explained in my last post which work). You can also see a very short description what they are supposed mean in the "Tech Level" table.
  Column C: input desired torpedo diameter/caliber in mm. (I added also added a useful metric/imperial calculator on the top.) There are  NO hard caps limiting your choice. There are, however, a few soft-caps which make very small and very large torpedoes undesirable.
  Column D: enter torpedo length in m. Check column L too see if you overdid it.
  Column E: choose warhead weight in kg. Check column N if your choice was reasonable.
  Column F: enter absolute maximum speed of the Torpedo. Check column M.
  Column G: choose a low speed setting if desired.
  
  Read range results in columns H and I (in meter).
  
  
  Now an example:
  Mk.14 Mod 3
  as S4(early WW2 model): 3265 m @45 kn, 5748 m @33.5 kn and 8499 m @26.5 kn
  as S5(late WW2 model): 4456 m @45 kn, 7845 m @33,5 kn and 11599 m @26,5 kn
  --> the estimate is a bit low for the low speeds and somewhere between the two for max speed.
  
  
  Why excel? It just like saying "we use SpringSharp for ships". You don't need to know what's happening inside.
  English is fine, but numbers don't have to be translated. If I tried to explain what this thing does, than I'm sure most people would fall asleep reading it and not understand a word. It basically tries do to everything written here, and a bit more. There are even a couple of your ideas, that survived testing, in there!

[snip]

Im going to side with Carth on this one. While being able to make custom torps would be nice, it is easyer to go with the default SS warhead for the purpace of siming combat. Carth's rules give a good enough approximation for our purpaces. Keeping the program required to just SS as opposed to forcing excel or an equivalent into the list is best for keeping new people who want to play around. The reports are almost to the point where one needs a spreadsheet to do them as is. Why does every little thing within the sim need its own spreadsheet to do?

[Carthaginian]

Try to explain it to me... I'm not a moron, I'm just not a programer. :)
If you have a method, you can put it into words and they can be understood by all who take the time to read and reference- just throwing a spreadsheet at us and expecting us to 'tinker with it' is a bit condescending. It essentially takes everyone else out of the process, and hangs the entire process of building the rules on the person building the spreadsheet.

Let's hash this thing out in words and numbers, out in the open... then if a spreadsheet is the easiest way to organize the process, we can all see 1.) where things started 2.) where they went 3.) how they work together and 4.) what's going on inside.
It's a lot better when folks know how the system works before they are told to play with the system.

Also, out of curiosity, which of my ideas are in there... as I can't navigate that thing with a map and compass.

PS... I understand that you are European and that figures for German torps are probably more available- but there is American Torpedo Information at NavWeaps.com if you want to think about adding some American torps. The secret is to pick one set of range figures from one source, and stick with it... not to get distracted by the fact that you have many different estimates on many separate websites. After all, the same is true for every torpedo, as I have seen many different quotes on German torps.

[Nobody]

Try to explain it to me... I'm not a moron, I'm just not a programer. :)
If you have a method, you can put it into words and they can be understood by all who take the time to read and reference- just throwing a spreadsheet at us and expecting us to 'tinker with it' is a bit condescending. It essentially takes everyone else out of the process, and hangs the entire process of building the rules on the person building the spreadsheet.

Okay I will try to explain a couple of ideas, but not what/how it is actually done. Btw, shouldn't we split this?

Idea 1) physics. v~P³. Range~1/v²...
Idea 2) different propulsion types at several tech-levels with different advantages and disadvantages.
Idea 3) Range depends on amount of energy (fuel) stored inside. Space is shared with warhead, engine and steering/homing equipment.  Higher speed -> bigger engine less fuel. If the engine and warhead get too big the range becomes negative.
Idea 4) if the speed is different from the optimum the efficiency drops.
Idea 5) a flexible cap on the torpedo's length to diameter ratio. That is a tiny torpedo can be longer than a big one - relatively.
6) check if the warhead size is reasonable.
7) estimate the torpedo's weight.
8) I sure there was more... need sleep.

Let's hash this thing out in words and numbers, out in the open... then if a spreadsheet is the easiest way to organize the process, we can all see 1.) where things started 2.) where they went 3.) how they work together and 4.) what's going on inside.
It's a lot better when folks know how the system works before they are told to play with the system.

I disagree. I think it better to test something you don't know how it works and be surprised by the results (positive or negative), than explicitly test the limits.

Also, out of curiosity, which of my ideas are in there... as I can't navigate that thing with a map and compass.

The maximum allowed speed of the torpedo is affected almost as you described it under #4 (that is column H on the "internal" page). However, I  had to add (well sub actually) a term that prevents big torpedos from going like 100 kn as standard.