Preliminary Rules

[Nobody]

Rocky, are you sure about the name? It sounds wrong to me. I think Terra Nova would be better.


I would also like an answer to the question of multiple industries per city, because otherwise as I understand it, a city with a port or shipyard could be nothing else.

I really hope we don't start with 1950s engines and I can't say I like how guns and torpedoes might be handled (especially the upper and lower limits are too arbitrary), but let's see how they come along.
That said I'm looking forward to see how it turns out.

[The Rock Doctor]

I'm open to names.  I didn't want people getting confused with that television show called "Terra Nova".  We could call it, "Rocky's Deathworld Naval Carnage Extravaganza" if y'all wish.

I don't think we'll start with 1950 engines.  Seems to be a fair bit of opposition.  Probably start around 1920 or 1925 - I'm not really wondered that this sim would run a full 25 or 30 years.

I figure something like Darman's suggestion for cities with multiple industries will come 'round.  Just need to ponder the details of the numbers.

Keep the comments coming, guys.  I'll see if I can finalize the rules set by Christmas.

[Darman]

If we start with an economy of at least $3500 that is about 17 industries per person (averaged out, assuming each city is exactly $200).  That seems like a lot to me.  Maybe make the threshold for industries higher?  Perhaps $500 instead of $200? 

[The Rock Doctor]

Thoughts, y'all?

[Valles]

I don't really think the existing numbers are too much at all; at two models per arsenal, you'll need several arsenals to produce a complete range for a fleet, and one square kilometer per soil factory per year is, if anything, even less of a factor. Certainly some industries are more 'efficient' than that, but that's almost certainly there for a reason, and IMHO, 17-23 is a good fit between being able to afford the basics and being able to customize things.

[Nobody]

I don't think we should have more than a handful of starting cities. I don't see the space for much more on the map either.

[Nobody]

So here are my ideas for weapons limits:

• they should include any known real weapon and rounded up to next "nice" limit
  
  For torpedoes that means:
  
• the smallest torpedos should be allowed to be of ~30 cm diameter and only a few meters in length (think of the very early Whiteheads)
  
• the biggest torpedos should be allowed to have a diameter of 65 to 70 cm or 28" (think of the Japanese WW2 "long lance" and the German WW1 J/9s)
  
• 10 m length limit seems reasonable
  Carthaginian idea isn't bad, but too simple IMO.
  I would expect a torpedo range to be directly proportional to the length and also to the diameter (maybe as a sqare root?). Also important max speed and multiple speed settings (Range~v^-2), and warhead size.
  I would happily invent a formula and a tool for easy use if you are interested.
  
  
  For guns that means:
  460 mm guns should be allowed, at least 19". Some might argue that 20", 520 mm and 21" might have made it onto ships as well. I would vote for 55 cm upper limit. If someone wants to put a mortar (<30cal) on a ship then 60 cm should be allowed as well.
  I have some ideas how to regulate this, but I'm not going to put much effort into it if noone is interested. Same goes for engine rules/tech tree.

[Valles]

...I sincerely doubt that a City will occupy an entire square on the current drafts of our maps.

By a couple of orders of magnitude.

[Darman]

I don't really think the existing numbers are too much at all; at two models per arsenal, you'll need several arsenals to produce a complete range for a fleet, and one square kilometer per soil factory per year is, if anything, even less of a factor. Certainly some industries are more 'efficient' than that, but that's almost certainly there for a reason, and IMHO, 17-23 is a good fit between being able to afford the basics and being able to customize things.

I agree that we will each need several arsenals to have a variety of weapons.  But also, in the beginning, wouldn't it be more interesting if you were limited in the types of guns you could make?  As an example, if you have 2 arsenals, and you choose to build twin mount and hoist 8 inch guns, twin 14in torpedo mounts, single deck mount 6inch guns, and single deck mount 4in guns.  Now you have to figure out how to design a light cruiser.  Do you put 6in guns on her with 4in secondaries?  I just feel it adds an added complexity to the designing of ships in the beginning.  But if you have 5 arsenals then you have ten choices.  And little incentive to make a deal with a neighbor to sell weapons back and forth.

I don't think we should have more than a handful of starting cities. I don't see the space for much more on the map either.

I don't know how much space the cities will take up but I do feel that there should be the opportunity for cities to be widely distributed.  Not during the beginning of the game.  It seems like 60+ cities in the top right corner is an awful lot, and that is before we begin expanding and before counting NPCs.  I think it should be a smaller number like enough economy for 5 industries/cities.  We can still have starting economy at $3500+ just make the threshold for industries higher. 

[The Rock Doctor]

Bear in mind, folks, that the top quarter of the map is one quarter of the planet - all of Europe, or the western Pacific.  It's not that small a space.

[Nobody]

Bear in mind, folks, that the top quarter of the map is one quarter of the planet - all of Europe, or the western Pacific.  It's not that small a space.

That might be true, but our cities will be all coastal, won't they?

[The Rock Doctor]

Pretty much.

I guess we'll see just how crowded things get.

[Carthaginian]

For torpedoes that means:

• the smallest torpedos should be allowed to be of ~30 cm diameter and only a few meters in length (think of the very early Whiteheads)
  
• the biggest torpedos should be allowed to have a diameter of 65 to 70 cm or 28" (think of the Japanese WW2 "long lance" and the German WW1 J/9s)
  
• 10 m length limit seems reasonable
  Carthaginian idea isn't bad, but too simple IMO.
  I would expect a torpedo range to be directly proportional to the length and also to the diameter (maybe as a sqare root?). Also important max speed and multiple speed settings (Range~v^-2), and warhead size.
  I would happily invent a formula and a tool for easy use if you are interested.
  

Nobody,
I wanted to avoid going into algebra at all costs. I also agree that speed settings, warhead size, etc would vary in real life and have impact on the effectiveness of any torpedo of a given length... but I was hoping to keep the system dirt simple!

I could see having a simple 'range setting' but 1.) I didn't want to make things too complicated for the mods and 2.) I didn't want to make a system that would take weeks to research ad not be ready at the start of the game! Also, I figured that since SpringSharp only uses a certain percentage of the torpedo's weight as an assumption (yeah, that word) of the torpedo's warhead size, that we should standardize on that figure. This would mean that SpringSharp's torpedo estimate would be law, and further simplify the game, the job of the mods simming the game, and the rules needed to govern the game.

I think it would be simplest to just take a good estimate for a range increase r/t speed (say, using the Mk-14's setting ratio and rounding to a good number) and just let warhead size stay constant. I know it doesn't express every possibility, but it is a fairly good compromise between FLEXIBILITY, POSSIBILITY and SIMPLICITY.

Expanding the Upper and Lower limits on size would be possible in the system I had worked out, and indeed might actually be beneficial... I like the idea.

Tonight after work, I'll knock up a version of my rules that will allow for your suggestions.


As for the gun size.... I don't think special rules for mortars are necessary.
With SS3, you can pick the barrel length, and thus building a mortar on your ship is as simple as making the barrel length consistent with a mortar. We would just create an upper limit on barrel size for a mortar of 900mm- this is just under the 36" bore of 'Little David.'
I'd agree that 19" would be as big a gun as I would care to see (actually 18" takes that cake), but if someone wants to try for a nice, round number like a 20" cannon, I could hardly fault them for wanting it... so 500mm as an upper limit sounds nice.

[miketr]

1.  The $20 or less that a player pays for a new city is basically the cost of constructing its basic infrastructure.  The civilian sector builds the rest of it.  The potential benefits to the player are:

-Physical occupation of the area in which the city is located.
-Decentralizing his economy to additional locations.
-Once the city is large enough, an industry.

While I think the $4000 starting economy is equal to around 20 million people, we aren't going to track population in the game. 

No pop, no problem.

Define large enough for industry?

Are we going to track GDP by city?  If so is there any reason not to have just one city and just dump all of my GDP into the one city?

2.  Players will choose the industry of any city they build during play.  They will probably also be choosing the industry of their existing cities as the game starts (I might roll some of them - still contemplating).  I'll determine NPC industries.

This gives players the possibility of building closed system that don't need to trade.

3.  At the moment, the only form of resource production upgrade is the notion of allowing multiple industries per city.  The cost for that is to be determined.

I envision the current industry system to accomplish a couple of things:

-Quantify that the player has or does not have access to key commodities, without getting into the nitty-gritty of how much he has and how much he uses.

-Limit weapons research and construction without applying dollar costs that are, in the grand scheme of things, pretty inconsequential to a player's budget anyway.

-Provide a bit of "color" to the player's nation, by allowing him to determine whether his focus is on military power, trade, or expansion.

If a player desires more industry, then his options are:

-Start with a number of small cities, and let the economy grow until those cities can claim industries

-Start new cities once play begins

-Grab other people's cities.

Any idea as to what the cut off point is to be on resource production to appear?

Here is one thought to think about Rocky.  Ditch the GDP / tax system.  Instead cities have income in Dollars.

For a base sized city you can add $1 of income for $20 of investment (5% rate of return).  After city reaches a certain  cut off point you have to start spending more money for each $1 of new income.  A case can be made for greater cost efficiency by cramming more people into a given location but to force people to expand you might want other things to happen. 

Michael

[The Rock Doctor]

The motivation for expansion's still a bit unresolved.  I've generally assumed it'd be greed for money and power.

Concentration of sites is a problem.

How would you chart the city-growth as you suggest?