Ships of the Nederlands

[ledeper]

Brabrant, Nederlands Armored Cruiser laid down 1880

Displacement:
   9.129 t light; 9.440 t standard; 9.488 t normal; 9.526 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (295,28 ft / 295,28 ft) x 65,62 ft x (26,25 / 26,34 ft)
   (90,00 m / 90,00 m) x 20,00 m  x (8,00 / 8,03 m)

Armament:
      2 - 11,02" / 280 mm 35,0 cal guns - 579,02lbs / 262,64kg shells, 90 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1880 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      8 - 5,91" / 150 mm 35,0 cal guns - 89,02lbs / 40,38kg shells, 120 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1880 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts
      6 - 3,94" / 100,0 mm 35,0 cal guns - 26,38lbs / 11,96kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1880 Model
     6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      6 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
      10 - 1,97" / 50,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 3,55lbs / 1,61kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1880 Model
     10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      10 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 2.064 lbs / 936 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11,8" / 300 mm   206,69 ft / 63,00 m   9,71 ft / 2,96 m
   Ends:   7,87" / 200 mm   103,31 ft / 31,49 m   9,71 ft / 2,96 m
   Upper:   7,87" / 200 mm   191,93 ft / 58,50 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9,84" / 250 mm   3,94" / 100 mm            -
   2nd:   3,94" / 100 mm   1,97" / 50 mm            -
   3rd:   2,76" / 70 mm   1,97" / 50 mm            -
   4th:   0,79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Protected deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 3,94" / 100 mm
   Forecastle: 3,94" / 100 mm  Quarter deck: 3,94" / 100 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 11,81" / 300 mm, Aft 5,91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 13.955 ihp / 10.411 Kw = 18,00 kts
   Range 0nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 85 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   479 - 624

Cost:
   £0,799 million / $3,198 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 218 tons, 2,3 %
      - Guns: 218 tons, 2,3 %
   Armour: 3.548 tons, 37,4 %
      - Belts: 1.981 tons, 20,9 %
      - Armament: 303 tons, 3,2 %
      - Armour Deck: 1.093 tons, 11,5 %
      - Conning Towers: 171 tons, 1,8 %
   Machinery: 2.883 tons, 30,4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2.390 tons, 25,2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 359 tons, 3,8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 90 tons, 0,9 %
      - Hull below water: 30 tons
      - Hull above water: 10 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 20 tons
      - Above deck: 30 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     6.353 lbs / 2.882 Kg = 11,2 x 11,0 " / 280 mm shells or 1,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,34
   Metacentric height 4,5 ft / 1,4 m
   Roll period: 13,0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,13
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,653 / 0,653
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4,50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17,18 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20,00 %,  17,62 ft / 5,37 m,  14,83 ft / 4,52 m
      - Forward deck:   30,00 %,  14,83 ft / 4,52 m,  12,04 ft / 3,67 m
      - Aft deck:   35,00 %,  12,04 ft / 3,67 m,  12,04 ft / 3,67 m
      - Quarter deck:   15,00 %,  12,04 ft / 3,67 m,  12,04 ft / 3,67 m
      - Average freeboard:      13,24 ft / 4,04 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 107,4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 75,1 %
   Waterplane Area: 14.883 Square feet or 1.383 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 94 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 116 lbs/sq ft or 567 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,96
      - Longitudinal: 2,93
      - Overall: 1,07
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[ledeper]

Willem III, Nederlands Battleship laid down 1880
Barbette ship

Displacement:
   9.896 t light; 10.342 t standard; 11.001 t normal; 11.529 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (360,89 ft / 360,89 ft) x 65,62 ft x (22,97 / 23,93 ft)
   (110,00 m / 110,00 m) x 20,00 m  x (7,00 / 7,29 m)

Armament:
      4 - 12,00" / 305 mm 25,0 cal guns - 723,51lbs / 328,18kg shells, 90 per gun
     Breech loading guns in open barbette mounts, 1880 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      8 - 6,00" / 152 mm 30,0 cal guns - 91,78lbs / 41,63kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1880 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 - 4,00" / 102 mm 30,0 cal guns - 27,18lbs / 12,33kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1880 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
      8 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 1,83lbs / 0,83kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1880 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 3.860 lbs / 1.751 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   288,71 ft / 88,00 m   9,72 ft / 2,96 m
   Ends:   6,00" / 152 mm     72,16 ft / 21,99 m   9,72 ft / 2,96 m
   Upper:   6,00" / 152 mm   288,71 ft / 88,00 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 123 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:         -            -         10,0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   6,00" / 152 mm         -               -
   3rd:   3,00" / 76 mm         -               -
   4th:   1,00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 3,00" / 76 mm
   Forecastle: 3,00" / 76 mm  Quarter deck: 3,00" / 76 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 10,00" / 254 mm, Aft 4,00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 7.453 ihp / 5.560 Kw = 15,30 kts
   Range 4.400nm at 8,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1.187 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   536 - 698

Cost:
   £0,698 million / $2,792 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 376 tons, 3,4 %
      - Guns: 376 tons, 3,4 %
   Armour: 4.362 tons, 39,7 %
      - Belts: 2.447 tons, 22,2 %
      - Armament: 695 tons, 6,3 %
      - Armour Deck: 1.071 tons, 9,7 %
      - Conning Towers: 149 tons, 1,4 %
   Machinery: 1.540 tons, 14,0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3.508 tons, 31,9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.105 tons, 10,0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 110 tons, 1,0 %
      - Hull below water: 10 tons
      - Hull above water: 20 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 50 tons
      - Above deck: 30 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     15.799 lbs / 7.167 Kg = 21,5 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 2,8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,42
   Metacentric height 4,9 ft / 1,5 m
   Roll period: 12,4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 92 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,33
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,83

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,708 / 0,712
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19,00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   10,00 %,  19,49 ft / 5,94 m,  16,37 ft / 4,99 m
      - Forward deck:   20,00 %,  16,37 ft / 4,99 m,  13,29 ft / 4,05 m
      - Aft deck:   60,00 %,  13,29 ft / 4,05 m,  13,29 ft / 4,05 m
      - Quarter deck:   10,00 %,  13,29 ft / 4,05 m,  13,29 ft / 4,05 m
      - Average freeboard:      14,03 ft / 4,28 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 59,3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 92,9 %
   Waterplane Area: 19.116 Square feet or 1.776 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 124 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 139 lbs/sq ft or 677 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1,02
      - Longitudinal: 2,26
      - Overall: 1,11
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[ledeper]

HmNs Tromp, Nederland Armored Cruiser laid down 1880

Displacement:
   8.413 t light; 8.747 t standard; 9.764 t normal; 10.578 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (360,89 ft / 360,89 ft) x 59,06 ft x (20,51 / 22,05 ft)
   (110,00 m / 110,00 m) x 18,00 m  x (6,25 / 6,72 m)

Armament:
      2 - 11,81" / 300 mm 25,0 cal guns - 689,87lbs / 312,92kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mounts, 1880 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      10 - 4,92" / 125 mm 35,0 cal guns - 51,52lbs / 23,37kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1880 Model
     10 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      10 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
      8 - 3,94" / 100,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 28,37lbs / 12,87kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1880 Model
     8 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 2.122 lbs / 962 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9,84" / 250 mm   288,71 ft / 88,00 m   9,71 ft / 2,96 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   3,94" / 100 mm   288,71 ft / 88,00 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 123 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11,8" / 300 mm         -               -
   2nd:   5,00" / 127 mm         -               -
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 1,97" / 50 mm
   Forecastle: 1,97" / 50 mm  Quarter deck: 1,97" / 50 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 8,00" / 203 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 10.536 ihp / 7.860 Kw = 17,00 kts
   Range 4.500nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1.831 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   490 - 638

Cost:
   £0,701 million / $2,803 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 265 tons, 2,7 %
      - Guns: 265 tons, 2,7 %
   Armour: 2.663 tons, 27,3 %
      - Belts: 1.577 tons, 16,2 %
      - Armament: 330 tons, 3,4 %
      - Armour Deck: 677 tons, 6,9 %
      - Conning Tower: 79 tons, 0,8 %
   Machinery: 2.177 tons, 22,3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3.008 tons, 30,8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.351 tons, 13,8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 3,1 %
      - Hull below water: 150 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 100 tons
      - Above deck: 50 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     10.491 lbs / 4.759 Kg = 15,0 x 11,8 " / 300 mm shells or 1,7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,47
   Metacentric height 4,4 ft / 1,3 m
   Roll period: 11,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 77 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,29
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,65

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,782 / 0,788
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,11 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19,00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   10,00 %,  20,34 ft / 6,20 m,  17,13 ft / 5,22 m
      - Forward deck:   20,00 %,  17,13 ft / 5,22 m,  13,88 ft / 4,23 m
      - Aft deck:   60,00 %,  13,88 ft / 4,23 m,  13,88 ft / 4,23 m
      - Quarter deck:   10,00 %,  13,88 ft / 4,23 m,  13,88 ft / 4,23 m
      - Average freeboard:      14,66 ft / 4,47 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84,9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 102,3 %
   Waterplane Area: 18.422 Square feet or 1.711 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 118 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 121 lbs/sq ft or 592 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1,03
      - Longitudinal: 1,99
      - Overall: 1,10
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Jefgte]

 ;)
IMO, 2 x 12" guns have a too low ROF
Probable hit on the enemy ship is nearly 0

4 main guns, lighter, like 254 or 240, are the minimum vs an enemy to have a probable hit.


Jef  ;)

[Korpen]

;)
IMO, 2 x 12" guns have a too low ROF
Probable hit on the enemy ship is nearly 0

4 main guns, lighter, like 254 or 240, are the minimum vs an enemy to have a probable hit.

Problem with that argument is that it is not true.
Guns of around 25cm are unlikely to have any effect against capital ships, so more hits might be fairly irrelevant. Also, the difference in rate of fire is not that large, probably about 1 round ever 3 minutes for the ~25cm guns and about 1 shot per 2-3 minutes, while it would most likely be 4-5 for the 30cm guns. Heck, even light guns such as 12cm guns hade a ROF of only 1 shot in 2minutes under battle conditions at this time.

HmNs Tromp, Nederland Armored Cruiser laid down 1880

Armament:
      2 - 11,81" / 300 mm 25,0 cal guns - 689,87lbs / 312,92kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mounts, 1880 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread

Single Erickson turrets are seriously wasteful as a single gun and twin gun turret weigh pretty much the same.

10 - 4,92" / 125 mm 35,0 cal guns - 51,52lbs / 23,37kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1880 Model
     10 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      10 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
      8 - 3,94" / 100,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 28,37lbs / 12,87kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1880 Model
     8 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts

Why so many fairly useless peashooters?

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9,84" / 250 mm   288,71 ft / 88,00 m   9,71 ft / 2,96 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   3,94" / 100 mm   288,71 ft / 88,00 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 123 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11,8" / 300 mm         -               -
   2nd:   5,00" / 127 mm         -               -
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm         -               -

Seriously under-armoured if wrought iron, but even with compound armour it is too little to keep out shot and shell from capital ship guns.
And I do not see much use for the upper belt.

She is fast, but unless she can function well in a fight I see little need for it unless she is primary intended for ramming attacks?

[Jefgte]

Problem with that argument is that it is not true.

I maintain my argument.

2 main guns are not enough
4 main are the minimum.

Jef

[Korpen]

Problem with that argument is that it is not true.

I maintain my argument.

2 main guns are not enough
4 main are the minimum.

Jef

But the number of guns is irrelevant if they are ineffective, and a sub-25cm gun is incapable of inflicting battle-significant damage on a capital ship. This reduce the sips attack options to ramming alone, but for that a ship need quite a bit of armour.