Asia Buildup

[Valles]

My intention in regards to the backstory had basically been that, sometime in the 1600s, Japan conquered Korea from the then-ruling dynasty and installed various samurai and nobility in place of the existing nobility and segments of the gentry. Thus, when the Shogunal deputy ruling 'the Korean territories' rebelled and set himself up as an independent king, say, a hundred-odd years after the conquest, he was ruling a nation with a Japanese-speaking ruling class, a Korean-speaking lower class, and a 'mixed' middle class. Cultural and social development since then could easily have gone any which way; the important part of this setup from my perspective is that it establishes both a conflict and a 'resolution' of that conflict - the King of Korea has the 'in' to quite credibly dream of setting himself up as Shogun, and the Shogun, in turn, can hope to break the 'rebellious Daimyo' - historically, the net balance has clearly been to Korea, given their holdings on Kyushu and Honshu.

In the modern era, I'd been thinking that there was something of a succession-struggle either going on or waiting in the wings: an aging king, a plethora of cousins and descendants with no clear front-runner and a lot of standing bad blood... But I figure that with you running the nation, that's out the window.

Ironically, I'm intending to have Japan start in the position of having a first-rate Army and needing to build up their navy; it's hard to conquer significantly-resisting territory with only a limited ground force.

Hmm.

I guess I'm striking for Siberia, first.

[Ithekro]

Internal problems can still be arranged.  Enough so they can't advance in Japan, and probably enough to keep the Koreans from forming a solid direction...at least for any ground operations.  The naval lord/relative might be a problem for the other local powers, but any ideas of conquest will likely be hindered by others in the family and the lack of an effective offensive Army.

What is the political state of Hokkaido at this time?

Are the Japanese and Koreans actually in direct conflict in Kyushu and Honshu, or are those "family holdings" for the Korean part of the old Empire?   If they are in conflict...there must be a reason the prefectures are like they are (the borders on both islands, the Koreans not holding all of Kyushu and having a foothold on Honshu).


And do we have an idea of when techologies should become avalible for countries to use?  Things seem to be in a kind of vaccum if the Europeans are not expanding as historical (the opening of Japan by Perry for example, and the Hermit Kingdom of Korea that is historical seems to be not possible if the situation is as is).  Though in the Koreans case, they seemed to develope their own cannons and iron armored ships even in the 1500s.

[Valles]

Internal problems can still be arranged.  Enough so they can't advance in Japan, and probably enough to keep the Koreans from forming a solid direction...at least for any ground operations.  The naval lord/relative might be a problem for the other local powers, but any ideas of conquest will likely be hindered by others in the family and the lack of an effective offensive Army.

Sounds about right, yes.

What is the political state of Hokkaido at this time?

Hokkaido, Sapporo, and the Kuriles are the territory of the Kingdom of Echizo, a nominally independent ethnically Ainu nation slightly predating the current Shogunate. In theory, Echizo is a close ally of Japan, bound by a reciprocal offensive and defensive military treaty.

Of course, in theory, the King of Japan is an unchallenged absolute monarch. The odds of a rebellion in either case are not considered high.

Are the Japanese and Koreans actually in direct conflict in Kyushu and Honshu, or are those "family holdings" for the Korean part of the old Empire?   If they are in conflict...there must be a reason the prefectures are like they are (the borders on both islands, the Koreans not holding all of Kyushu and having a foothold on Honshu).

I'd been essentially undecided about that. I don't think that in either case there would be an ongoing war - more along the lines of a chilly and uneasy interval between same - but hadn't 'decided' whether the borders were a treaty-regularized version of the results of the last conflict or dating back to the personal demesnes of the 'King of Korea' and his original Japanese cronies. Either can work perfectly well.

And do we have an idea of when techologies should become avalible for countries to use?  Things seem to be in a kind of vaccum if the Europeans are not expanding as historical (the opening of Japan by Perry for example, and the Hermit Kingdom of Korea that is historical seems to be not possible if the situation is as is).  Though in the Koreans case, they seemed to develope their own cannons and iron armored ships even in the 1500s.

And the Japanese were producing some of the best long-arms in the world during the same period, yeah. My version of the Tokugawa Shogunate rose in rebellion against a stable and solidly set preceding Shogunate, and based their initial power on the establishment of a gunpowder arms industry.

I believe that the mods are planning on 'opening' things for research based on their judgement of events in the world - long-range naval gunnery will show up when circumstances seem to justify the introduction of fire control, and so forth.

[Ithekro]

It would be interesting if the lands held were traditional holding, or clans that decided (perhaps after a revolt) to be loyal to the mainland king over the homeland emperor...or has the emperor fallen in times past so now there are only kings because no one from the imperial line lived (or it was split two form the Kingdoms of Japan and Korea).  I was thinking the old Korean dynasty would have been propped back up...maybe via marriage or tradition, but I'm not sure what the standard practise is in Asia when it comes to taking over countries in the 16th and 17th centuries.  Thus you have either two Japans, or a Japan that has no emperor...just a king that may or may not have a lot of real power (might not even be worthy of being worshiped as a god), and the Shogun, who might be the king, but even if not, is the real power.  Korea would have a king, but squabbling lords as there would be no Shogun.


I'm attempting to figure out a way to make a large number of small sea-going ironclads and iron/steel ships.  Thick enough armor to warrent a battleship, powerful enough guns to engage a battleship...but with few guns and speed is not a real issue.  Basically a "mass produced" coastal defense force so that while on ship would not be a match for a "modern" battleship, it would take a battleship to take out out.  The mass produced quality is so they could be lots of them, which could overwhelm a modern battleship.

Most coastal defense force navies I see have only a few ships.  What I'm going for is not really a coastal defense force, but a warfleet of small capital ships backed up by a few massive capital ships with large numbers of guns.  The large numbers should overwhelm the enemy just because there are so many of them.  Something like my Turtle Ship I guess, but with vastly superior seakeeping ability.  (Trying to go for the flavor of the 1590s Korean Navy, just with modern technology).

[Valles]

It would be interesting if the lands held were traditional holding, or clans that decided (perhaps after a revolt) to be loyal to the mainland king over the homeland emperor...or has the emperor fallen in times past so now there are only kings because no one from the imperial line lived (or it was split two form the Kingdoms of Japan and Korea).  I was thinking the old Korean dynasty would have been propped back up...maybe via marriage or tradition, but I'm not sure what the standard practice is in Asia when it comes to taking over countries in the 16th and 17th centuries.  Thus you have either two Japans, or a Japan that has no emperor...just a king that may or may not have a lot of real power (might not even be worthy of being worshiped as a god), and the Shogun, who might be the king, but even if not, is the real power.  Korea would have a king, but squabbling lords as there would be no Shogun.

The translation of the Japanese tenno as 'emperor' is traditional, but was originally politically motivated by comparison with Western powers. N4 Japan still uses tenno but translates it as 'king', and it refers to the same dynasty - who are, if anything, noticeably more political influential than they were OTL either before or after the Meiji Restoration; My bad for not clarifying.

Given the already 'extant' example of Echizo, it'd make perfect sense for the first Tokugawa Shogun to've set up his rule of Korea by sticking his hand up the ass of the already-ruling dynasty. I'd thought that he might not have because he was using Korean landholds as a combination reward for low-ranking loyalists and holding pen for 'troublesome elements'. My memory is that outright conquest tended to be fairly rare in East Asia - the only example I can think of without cracking my books is the Mongols/Yuan Dynasty.

It's perfectly possible that the Korean Royal Dynasty ended up bearing the 'bloodline of Amaterasu'; up until the American occupation the Chrysanthemum Throne was filled from any of four candidate families, rather than a strict Western-style succession, so marrying the Koreans to one of them - or bringing out the bloodline to create a fifth - wouldn't be impossible.

The timing of the rebellion and so forth I'm unsure of and will probably be perfectly willing to take your lead on.

I'm attempting to figure out a way to make a large number of small sea-going ironclads and iron/steel ships.  Thick enough armor to warrent a battleship, powerful enough guns to engage a battleship...but with few guns and speed is not a real issue.  Basically a "mass produced" coastal defense force so that while on ship would not be a match for a "modern" battleship, it would take a battleship to take out out.  The mass produced quality is so they could be lots of them, which could overwhelm a modern battleship.

I'm quite happy with my latest drafts of my 'three rate' system, and will probably end up essentially mass producing them, if that's any help. Then the next generation will be A-XY with shakubu twins, then A-XY with triples of the same bore for the dreadnought types.

Most coastal defense force navies I see have only a few ships.  What I'm going for is not really a coastal defense force, but a warfleet of small capital ships backed up by a few massive capital ships with large numbers of guns.  The large numbers should overwhelm the enemy just because there are so many of them.  Something like my Turtle Ship I guess, but with vastly superior seakeeping ability.  (Trying to go for the flavor of the 1590s Korean Navy, just with modern technology).

My own intent is ships of moderate power in great numbers - my DN pattern would probably outgun anything else in the world when the first class hits the water, but by the 1920s they'll be no more than 'adequate', and seem rather small and quaint by the time the 'Solar' class hits the water... But they'll be fit to fight as a unified body with hulls from twenty or thirty years earlier, and at five per class...

But that's going to have to wait until I can properly support the approach. For the time being, I'll have to limit myself to a transport flotilla and covering force.

[Valles]

The Ryukyu islands have been inhabited by Japonic peoples from the earliest times, and were first unified in the late fourteenth century of the common era. In the seventeenth century, the Ryukyuan kingdom served as the primary staging point for the Tokugawa Clan's importation of Western firearms technology in return for a share of the proceeds, and, on their ally's accession to the Shogunate, were granted major legal and economic priviledges within Japan in return for continued allegiance. The high point of the kingdom was the conquest and rulership of Taiwan from 1687 to 1770. In the modern era, the kingdom mandates a legal seperation between Noble (7% of the population) and Common (93%) populations and enjoys a skilled an efficient bureacracy based on the Chinese model. Though technically tax-exempt, socially mandated 'gifts' and behaviors provide the government with a significant revenue stream from its nobility.

My thinking in regards to the Ryukyuan conquest of Taiwan is that it was originally based on a combination of troops 'borrowed' from the Shogun and a (greatly) superior command of gunpowder arms for both land and sea purposes. The way I see the timeline working in regards to China is that the invasion came at about the same time that the 'tipping point' of revenue loss began to really tell on the dynasty of the time, and that the subsequent loss followed from either the stabilization of Zhu as a state, or a misdirected effort of a reforming Emperor to regain lost ground in several senses of the word, whose costs would ultimately cause the final bankruptcy of the last dynasty.

[Walter]

Well an exact date of the collapse has never been established, but with the temporary control of Taiwan between 1687 to 1770 and assuming that it was recaptured by the state of Zhu, that would put the collapse of China pre 1770, right?

So it is possible that the Ming Dynasty was the last dynasty where China was complete (1644), or a failure early on by the Manchu to properly establish the Qing Dynasty like the Revolt of the Three Feudatories which here would be successful (1680s). Actually those were southern provinces so that rebellion could not only set up Zhu as a nation, but help your bit for the conquest of Taiwan you have in mind as Qing most likely won't be able to capture it in 1683 as historical.

[Valles]

Before I was told to lay off trying to put together a 'combined' timeline, I'd figured that there hadn't been a Ming or Qing dynasty - that, though the patterns of cyclic rise and fall had been maintained, the details and timing had been completely different, and that whatever 'Navalism Time Line' Dynasty existed before the Four Kingdoms happened to be on the downcycle when Japan and its satellites were on the rise towards their historical peak.

And yeah, I figure that a century or so should be about the right amount of time for the Four Kingdoms to get on their feet and established.

[Vukovlad]

A quick question, is there a map available with cities marked? I ask because I am uncertain if Lianyungang and Wenzhou are within the borders of Wu or not.

[Walter]

No there isn't but there are a number of nice large sized maps of the various Chinese provinces around. This one would be for Jiangsu province.
http://www.chinatouristmaps.com/assets/images/province/jiangsu-province-map.jpg
... and with a little bit of guessing and estimations, you could figure out exactly what is within your borders.

Looking at our map, the wu-Wei border would be at about 60% of that 45 degree NW-SE bit of coast, so my rough guess would be about Yanwei. Looking at our map, that lake at out border would be Hongze Hu. So rough guess regarding the border there would be Yanwei-Xiangshui-Guannan-Siyang-Lake Hongze Hu.

That would put Lianyungang in Wei, but I don't see why there could not be a Lianyungang in Wu either close to the Wu-Wei border (though written with different characters).

Wenzhou appears to be just in Zhu, but you could do the same thing there as what I suggested with Lianyungang.

[Vukovlad]

OK, thanks